Thread: Beth with outriggers?

I don't see a full Beth type rig as being appropriate - too many spars and bits to be made. But I do like the idea of a ketch.

Would probably need some buoyancy tanks each end to give the torsional rigidity. Maybe the outriggers trimaran config is a better choice - there are no real torsional loads because lateral loads from resisting leeway, rig loads and the righting moment of the Amas all happens through the crossbeams.

Whereas a ketch/yawl rigged boat with a leeboard is going to have quite big torsional loads along the hull because the masts and leeboard are not in line. I think it would probably require quite big buoyancy areas to stiffen up the hull and some side decks as well each side of the cockpit area.

Too complicated and cuts into the simplicity and multifunction. Thankyou for the thoughts! Quite an interesting idea to take it a bit further by discussing.

MIK

G'day MIK
my musings in this area parallel Ian's.
"One ring to rule them all" and all that...

One boat which can be:

• Paddled with, or without company.
• Sailed solo in light air as a mono.
• Add amas if wind is stronger, or your companion/s demand it, or you just want to relax & enjoy the ride.
• Add amas & an electric donk to go fishing with the kids or grandkids.

Which would be the better of your 3 "canoes" for the central hull?
Beth, Eureka, or Quick Canoe ?

Understanding is that there would be additional permanent decking & framing
required to handle a daggerboard/leeboard and outrigger cross-beams.
Decking and frames done in 4mm ply with minimal reinforcing timbers...
Also added reinforcing around the stems, one or both of which may be fitted with gudgeons depending upon seating requirements.

Added complexity - yes!
Added weight - yes, but manageable? and worth the increased functionality?
Is there another 3- or 4-way boat in this class?

cheers
AJ

Hobie makes their 'Adventure Island' kayak which uses their amazing Mirage drive. This configuration can be used as a regular kayak, a trimaran, a pedal boat, or a sailboat using the same central hull and adding or subtracting bits depending on the usage. Perhaps the compexity of the entire package would be a small price to pay compared to building three different boats. Just sayin', thats all...

Rick

Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

One boat which can be:

• Paddled with, or without company.
• Sailed solo in light air as a mono.
• Add amas if wind is stronger, or your companion/s demand it, or you just want to relax & enjoy the ride.
• Add amas & an electric donk to go fishing with the kids or grandkids.

Which would be the better of your 3 "canoes" for the central hull?
Beth, Eureka, or Quick Canoe ?

I think:
Beth was designed especially as a traditional, by her character shape, monohull planing sailing canoe - good as she is. Outriggers can to change her specific beauty character.

Eureka is a paddling canoe - less stable than Beth and her sailing ability could be better with outriggers (I suppose).

Quick Canoe's hull has similar stability to Beth's hull I think, but she was designed as a multipurpose canoe and many modifications possible are. I think she is really the best for modifications and for purposes as above.

Sorry for duplicate posting (database error was and I've clicked twice)

Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

G'day MIK
my musings in this area parallel Ian's.
"One ring to rule them all" and all that...

One boat which can be:

• Paddled with, or without company.
• Sailed solo in light air as a mono.
• Add amas if wind is stronger, or your companion/s demand it, or you just want to relax & enjoy the ride.
• Add amas & an electric donk to go fishing with the kids or grandkids.

Which would be the better of your 3 "canoes" for the central hull?
Beth, Eureka, or Quick Canoe ?
cheers
AJ

Good question about the multipurpose aspect,

I have paddled beth some reasonable distances and she is a dog as a pure paddling canoe, but way better than the average dinghy in terms of getting places under paddle power. Just doesn't make the grade as a pure paddling boat. She is really oriented towards sailing

The Quick canoe would be OK. I would suspect that at higher speeds downwind in waves that bow fin might turn out to be a liability - getting a good grip in the back of a wave and overpowering the rudder. I would just plane it down. the hull has lots of buoyancy in terms of hull volume so it might be better in more difficult conditions ... with appropriate built in or bag buoyancy (did you note the buoyancy bags fitted when in the clips Eli was doing his canoe rolling trick).

The Eureka would probably be better performing in light and moderate conditions ... less wetted area, a less draggy shape. Would certainly perform best with the drop in sailing rig which has only a small sail (without outriggers).

For sailing you wouldn't use the built in seats .. you would move more centrally in the boat. You could use a beanbag like paul does when fishing for outrigger sailing with the bigger rig but it would be a good idea not to use the beanbag for sailing without the outriggers in anything but the lightest wind.

The drop in sailing rig is the small sail with leeboard integrated with the mast partner. The drop in outriggers have additional info available showing how the mast partner is integrated with the front crossbeam.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

I don't see a full Beth type rig as being appropriate - too many spars and bits to be made. But I do like the idea of a ketch.
MIK

Hi Mik,

Can you clarify what you are thinking here regarding (Beth - yawl rig - "not appropriate/too many spars") vs (Ketch - like the idea") My understanding is the ketch rig is the same as the Yawl in principle except the mizzen is further forward.

Agree with the difficulties of handling torsional loads, potentially solved by the drop in outrigger setup with a mast partner integrated in both the front and rear cross beam for a ketch style rig.

Ian

Hi Peter,

Sorry, my writing was misleading

The Quick canoe is so simple and time efficient to put together that it really needs a rig that is pretty similar in concept.

The balance lug doesn't really qualify - six spars, some needing rounding ... I would probably look at a sprit rig.

I was bundling the ketch/yawl rig together in the sentence, but my punctuation let me down.

MIK

The Duck Punts manage with just an Opi sprit rig and no rudder or board at all, just an oar.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMwzdD96GSA&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Duck Punt Racing[/ame]

They are just about the coolest boats on the planet. Would be great if one of the Quickanoe builders could just stick an opi rig in and a thole pin to pivot the oar against and try it.

Would have to be the coolest, quickest to build, leased involved sailboat build ever!

Brian

I do think a lot about this clip Brian ... it has been in my brain since you put it up the first time. I think it will match the Quick Canoe well (though the sail area may be a bit big) or can look at doing a specialist version in quick canoe construction with the same dimensions as the Duck Punts.

One of the problems I ran into years ago is that using a paddle to steer can cause quite a lot of load on one's back - so I have strongly recommended fitting a proper rudder for those with dodgy backs for users of my drop in sailing rig.

The downside of the duck punt rig is the cost - a pdr style rig with a well designed but polytarp sail would be just brilliant. The opti rigs are so far evolved past the original curtain rod spars that it is ridiculous - I think during the PDR debates I found a supplier for very nice set of 7000 series (aircraft) drawn aluminium tube spars for the opti for $700 - about the same as our full budget for everything for our first two PDRacers.

Do you know if they have class rules, Brian? I mean the Duck Punts?

MIK

Hi MIK. Yes the Duck Punt videos do get under the skin some what!

I was thinking more of secondhand rig, not new. Because of all the spending in the Opi class on latest gear, it leaves a lot of good gear available secondhand for little money.

A nice small sprit rig will be perfect either secondhand or made to an MIK design.

So far, the Duck Punts have all been made on the same jig and use Opi rigs. Oar length is defined as no longer than reaching your nose when standing!

Here is the Duck Punt website.

duckpunt | Laid back sailing

I have managed to secure a set of plans, some have taken years trying. The beam is only an inch or so more than your QC.

I would be happy to post them to you if you let me have your current address for you to look at. The stern has a dart in the side panel which creates a lovely fluted stern. I would be interesting to look at a much easier and quicker Quickanoe type build of a Duck Punt, although the ply used is 10mm and weight might form part of the way the design works.

It would seem though that one of the options for this multi use version of the Quickanoe could be small sprit and oar, in the Duck Punt style.

When you used an oar for steering, do you also have a thole pin as the Duck Punts do? Perhaps that helps a lot?

Brian