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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Poland
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    67
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    805

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    Hi Bitingmidge,
    All looks fine!
    Good luck for your project!
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


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  3. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
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    8,138

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    Midge ...

    Deviating from the plans already ... you promised!!!

    Nah - it is a good idea - there are lots of ways to any particular job on a boat - as the designer, I am happy if the RESULT is the same.

    Methods will often change with the tools and skills available

    If it adds weight or complication I don't like it in general.

    Here the end result is pretty much the same as the original intention - so I am happy! Even if Midge promised no changes!!!

    Best wishes
    Michael.

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,175

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    He he... to be fair, it's not a deviation from the plans, just a different method of work!

    I did promise though!

    P

  5. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,175

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    Crikey it's been a long haul this Christmas break!

    Some may have noticed the weather's been a bit ... inclement round these parts. That's meant that everyone who can't camp on Fraser Island has been popping round for a chat.

    Today, I didn't dare break out the epoxy, and the wheelie bin's full and we've run out of garbage bags so I can't even empty the dust collector.

    I don't know whether to be happy to catch up with all the old friends (it has been good), or grumpy because I haven't got anything done!

    There's always tomorrow, and I've got a week till work beckons so I should have at least the hull together even if not painted!

    Cheers till tomorrow,

    P

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sunshine Coast
    Age
    71
    Posts
    28

    Default Thanks guys

    Hi All
    Finally got over the xmas rush of friends and family who think casue one lives at the beach, that it is a good place for holidays. And when you have some 40 family members in the extended family, it can get hectic at times. sigh...... Plus we are slowly being blown away by a low pressure system off the coast. That gets rid of the visitors.... Needless to say, the canoe has gone into hibernation for a week or so. Though I can smell its gradual completion. Perhaps it will be finished in the next 100 years or so. Just kidding.....

    Really appreciate the replies and advice from everyone. Hairymick, AJ and P. Sorry that it has taken this long to reply but that is the nature of the silly season. Started on the bulkheads and taped them in. Then realised that I have to buy some portholes so will untape and cut out the holes for same. That is about how I work on this. 3 steps forward and 1 back. But I know that the next time I will be more proficient. But hot damn, it is great fun. Can't wait to finish it.

    I think that I will sand the epoxy when I finish and use a marine varnish. The canoe will be in a sling under the roof in the carport so will only get to meet Mr Sun when we go exploring. I have only glassed the seams. Am using West 'something' epoxy. The 207 hardener does not 'blush' (think that this is the correct word.) Aren't I a mine of information. Must be an age thing.

    Phil

  7. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,175

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    Day 4.

    Just a few hours again, still in the holiday mood, and so much wind and rain that if I open the garage door the back wall would get wet. I did sand some of the bits, and glued the panels together, oh, and scarfed all the long bits of timber.

    I cut out the keel as well, and fixed a bit of hardwood for the bottom of it. I’ve been in two minds as to whether to actually screw it on later or not, but have decided not to. I’ll paint over it and let the paint wear off. If it ever needs replacing, and being HARD wood of the Aussie eucalypt variety, it probably won’t, then I’ll do something about it.

    Pics:
    1. Setting out the keel. It’s now cut and it’s protective hardwood strip glued on, pics when I can get some light into the shed.
    2. The chine logs and part of the gunwhale laminate scarf joints. The hardwood in the centre is covered in tape to stop the epoxy sticking to it. I’ve kept them vertical, because after trying every other method, it’s the easiest for me to keep everything lined up, and needs only simple clamping. (Three per join) The joints look a little short in the pics, but they aren't, it's just an illusion caused by the squeeze out!
    3. No-one ever mentions this, which is a fair indication that it’s completely unnecessary, but I find it useful to slightly chamfer about 2/3 of the ply thickness below butt straps. I think it helps to align the edges properly, and it’s really easy to ensure that you get a solid glue joint between the ply as well. I use packaging tape under the join (on the outside face) to hold it all together during the process, and to guard against leaks etc.
    4. Here are the butt straps in place, you can see the brads which locate the corners, the filled join, which will later be covered by either the chine logs or the inwhale. Note just a tiny bit of squeeze out. I would have preferred a tiny bit more, but made the glue mix a bit stiff.
    5. The joints with weights. Anything will do as long as you can keep them flat.


    Cheers,

    P

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,175

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    Day 5.

    This weather is really getting a bit boring. I just can’t wait any longer or I’ll be back to work with two boats consuming every square inch of garage!

    100% humidity and 28° don’t make for pleasant conditions when the shed’s got to be closed up because of the high winds! And since it’s been like that for over a week, it was time just to do it.

    Firstly, those “pimples” that Phil spoke of: well there was just no way of warming the sheets first. Bunging them out in the rain doesn’t help. So after getting halfway through the first panel, I had to change tack, the thing was starting to look like it had a bad case of smallpox.

    To make it worse, the wind has whipped up all manner of debris and spread that all over the wet epoxy - this is one of those stay in bed days!

    I squeegeed the coat on very thinly, as thin as possible and still actually wetting the ply. This kept the visible damage down to a heap of tiny bubbles, rather than a bunch of small volcanoes, which should be OK after the next coat goes on a bit thicker. I’ll test a bit, and if there’s still bubbling happening, well I’ll just let it all go off, sand it, and coat it in better conditions.

    Pics:

    1. Bubbles caused by outgassing. They don’t look like much of a problem, and at this scale they aren’t, but imagine how unattractive a whole sheet of ply looks covered in them!
 When the epoxy is on thicker, they actually look more like pimples as Phil described, and make it quite difficult to get a fair surface.
    2. The coated bits of the main panels, at least I’ll be able to get the chine logs on tomorrow, with a bit more luck than I’ve been having of late!

    3. Yep, the Eureka got it’s final exterior coat as well, tomorrow I’ll roll her over and start on the top bits! She’ll be well and truly usable after that at least.

  9. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,175

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    Michael reckons the secret to getting things done is to stop caring about the outcome. I’ll let him explain, but if he hadn’t left me with those words today would have been one of those get nothing done times! I'd have been so discouraged I think I'd have watched tele all afternoon.

    I know I’ve whinged about it once or twice so far, but I’ll do it again for emphasis, and for the benefit of anyone who comes later worried that they don’t have the perfect building environment.

    There was so much humidity, that for the first time ever I experienced clouding in the epoxy caused by tiny bubbles of moisture caught in the air in the roller. I’m pretty sure most of it will find its way to the surface, and to be safe I’ve basically kept the coats fairly thin, but it’s time to have a heart attack when you roll it on and can’t see through it!

    Then when the squalls stop, despite the fact that it’s been raining on and off for a week, when it’s blowing at 40 to 60 kilometres per hour, every wood shaving and tree branch that’s not bolted down will come flying at wet epoxy. Trust me, I know about this stuff!

    Tomorrow looks like being fun with sander day and even though the finish isn’t quite the glossy mirror we all strive for, it’ll be OK eventually.

    Pics:
    1. Milky bloom shows through in brush marks, but fortunately disappeared by the time it was all done. At first it was a terrible opaque beige. Quite distressing to watch really!
    2. Interesting textured effects caused by a mix of high winds, sawdust, beach sand, and gum trees. I’m fairly sure that it’ll sand ok, but the dusty gritty bits might get interesting. No point in putting on a third coat though!
      If I'd pretended it was built in anti-skid I'd almost get away with it!
    3. Keel piece has a hardwood “sacrificial” bit on the bottom for its full length. I’m more concerned about the paulownia splitting than I am about the hardwood wearing through. It’s not my best piece of hardwood, but it’ll look ok once it’s properly bogged and sanded. The aft end of the keel is very close to its final shape, I’ll give it a poxy coat tonight and see what it looks like then!
    4. Forward end of the keel. The building instructions say “round end”. Is this what you had in mind Mik?

  10. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Fraser Coast
    Posts
    134

    Default

    G'day Midge,

    Real sorry about the debris in your resin mate. Bloody heart breaking.

    I am pretty lucky in that regard, the door to my boat shed faces North and all the trash has been just blowing past.

    Are going to sheath this boat in fibre-glass? - or tape the seams.

    If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion here.

    If the boat was mine, I would be coating the bottom to the waterline with graphite enriched epoxy. It really increases scratch and abrasion resistance. I wouldn't build a boat without it now.

    BTW, I am really enjoying your build mate.

  11. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,175

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    Despite me carrying on like a big girl, it'll be OK.

    It'll be taped, that's all. Now tell me about this graphite enriched epoxy... sounds messy.

    P

  12. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Fraser Coast
    Posts
    134

    Default

    Mate,

    I use 20 percent graphite powder by volume to resin and apply 3 coats to the bottom of my boats with a foam roller.

    Lightly sand it back smooth with wet & dry and the resin turns from coal black to grey. It is as hard as anything I have seen, very scratch resistant and makes the boat even more slippery through the water.

    All my wood boats are done like this now. I don't have to worry about running them up the beach of over logs etc. I use and abuse my boats and the graphite allows for my rough hillbilly ways.

    I think the Americans pioneered the idea for their flats boats, working over very shallow, rocky areas. The graphite stands up really well to this. If you like, I will create a thread on how to apply it for best results.

    A tin of grahite powder cost less than 15 bucks and is a very good investment on a wood boat.

  13. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sunshine Coast
    Age
    71
    Posts
    28

    Default Rain/wind

    Whats the bet that it rains soon. Sigh.... Apart from the fun of watching the kids on their surfboards getting creamed in the surf, methinks that nealry everyone on the Sunshine Coast is sick of the conditions; makes for interesting times working on the canoe. Finished glassing the seams on the outside of the hull and at the same time epoxied the bulkheads ready for fitting tomorrow. Really impresed with the paint tin gravity clamps and the graphite powder for the botom of the hull. What happens if you want to varnish? Or is this just for a painted hull?

    Computer is just back up after crashing for a few days but my clever better half has got it up and running. wow....I had better stick to timber. Stay dry all.

    Phil

  14. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
    Age
    65
    Posts
    8,138

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    Howdy Mick,

    It is interesting to hear that the toughness is increased with the adding of graphite - I'll keep my ears open for more info on that.

    The thing that you are doing that is better than most graphite applications is keeping it down to 25%. Most add a LOT of graphite assuming more is better - and the result is a soft flaky surface which damages easily.

    I might do some tests to compare surfaces when I get up to Midges later this month.

    While the surface toughness increase is useful there is no advantage at all in reducing drag.

    Graphite works nicely when two surfaces rub over each other - the graphite flakes slide over each other greatly reducing friction.

    However water behaves very differently. The first few layers of molecules stick to the boat surface strongly and don't move relative to the surface - there is no sliding movement.

    As you move further from the surface the water moves faster and faster relative to the surface until it matches the speed the boat is going.

    The water being carried along by the boat is termed the "boundary layer"

    It is a few molecules thick at the front of the boat and gets thicker towards the back of the boat.

    Graphite and Teflon surface materials appear from time to time in the boating game - and they are snake oil - they are on the market briefly then disappear without trace a year or so later. They fundamentally misunderstand how water actually behaves.

    A secondary type of evidence is that high performance craft don't use these materials at all - from time to time someone will try it again but pretty quickly move back to a smooth conventional paint finish.

    The only way of reducing drag is having a smooth surface - sanded and then polished with a non silicone polish. This is the surface that everyone from 18ft skiffs, America's cup boats and monster round the world multihulls use. If graphite or Teflon actually worked - they would all use it.

    The problem with silicon is that the water repellancy means that it is very easy for bubbles to stick firmly to the bottom which, of course, increase surface roughness.

    I think the additional toughness is an avenue worth considering, and the idea of using less graphite seems like a smart approach, but I would like to see it tested in an objective way. However the reduction of drag is not available.

    Best wishes.

    Michael

  15. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Fraser Coast
    Posts
    134

    Default

    Gday Mik,

    Thank you for your well thought out response to my claims mate.

    I bow to your greater knowledge re the drag thing through water.

    re the toughness, I stand by my comments. 20% graphite powder by volume is what I use and I would encourage you to try it. I apply three coats to all of my boats. The mix sets up so hard, It takes dragging the boat over oysters to scratch through the black to the clear resin underneath. Yes, I have done it. running up on a andy beach with afuew stones - no problem. Dragging the boat over sand (short distance) no problem.

    I paddle in the upper reaches of the Burrum and Mary river systems a fair bit. Both these waterways are heavily infested with water hyacinth (sp?) and all manner of surface weeds etc. The graphite on the bottom (seems ) to help when paddling through this stuff and my boats don't seem to get bogged so much in it.

  16. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Australia and France
    Posts
    8,175

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    Day 5.

    In the warm wet light of day, things aren’t so bad. After an hour or so of sanding the sheets look OK, it’s not worth posting a pic, just take my word for it OK?

    I’ve coated both sides of the bulkheads, because I hate epoxying vertical surfaces in a finished boat, and it’s so much easier to spend a bit of time now getting the hard work done, than later.

    It doesn’t seem like much progress for today, but the transom’s on it’s way, the chinelogs are are ready to glue on tomorrow too. But I did get the detail sanding on the Eureka finished and the remaining bare timber coated!

    Tomorrow will be another easy day, rowboat wise, as pretty much all that I’ll be able to do will be glue all the structural bits on the bulkheads, and wait for the epoxy to go off.

    All being well, on Friday, she’ll look like a boat. Not bad for seven half-days of pottering.

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