Thread: Concord Ryde S/C looking for new Adult 8ft trainer - OzRacer?

That's true Bruce,

The deep rocker of the Ducks is just enough to keep the ends out of the water with 64lbs of hull and adult crew.

And as soon as you have that degree of rocker the planing is quite different ... the boat sucks down heavily in the waves it generates and then suddenly pops out with a jump in speed (related to quite a big jump in windspeed) and then drops back down into the wavetrain very easily again.

It might be possible to get some better planing performance out of any boat of that length... but it won't be much of a planer.

I've owned a number of really good planing boats, Australian Sharpie and sailed Lasers, Laser 2s, the very defunct Frisco Dory, some nice NS14s. And if you are just sailing where you want on the water you can get them planing very nicely and very easily in moderate winds. But the reality of course racing is that you are always asked to sail less than optimum angles for planing ... so the windspeed might have to be quite a lot stronger to get extended planing in a race.

That was in the good old days of having triangle courses so you got something approximating a reach. Now you really would be pressed to get consistent planing performance from an 8 footer with an adult pilot most days around a race course.

The problems are very much amplified for smaller boats that will be heavier than Bruce's moth (without the bits and pieces the moth will be under 40 lbs, the duck is 64, moths of that era were best with a crew around 150lbs (68kg approx) where many of the ducks will be middle agers at 180 to 200lbs (80kg+).

MIK

I know that a British moth or my Chickadee scow cannot be scaled down to 8 foot to remain 150 kg carrying capacity without touching other variables.

It was more along the lines of your edit Bruce, that I was thinking. But much needs to be changed to allow for the necessary volume (bit more width, wider bow and transom, less V, etc., I imagine) and yes, the shape will approach an OZ racer but with some interesting curves. The question for me is, would such curves be beneficial or not in certain conditions?

Joost

This drop in planing performance is something that the rules will need to address as designers will want to resort to tricks to increase the waterline length, just as they did with Moths.

This is the Moth Rule:
6.1.1 No attempt at increasing waterline length shall be made by fairings comprising part of, or attachedto rudder fittings or stem fittings. Outside of the structural connection points to the hull, the
gantry shall be at least 30mm away from the transom surface, and the extension of the hull shell.
6.1.2 Any fittings or fairings attached to the hull, except for the rudder fittings and stem fittings shall be
considered part of the hull.
6.1.3 If the rudder fittings or stem fittings extend more than 500mm beyond the limits of the overall
length of the hull, the excess shall be added to the measured length of the hull.

Speaking of planing, in Australia, we are very lucky that our Laser fleets get to sail a great style of course so that we are not confined to the standard windward/return type of course that even in the the Olympics has become the norm. The course provides for two reaching legs and provided the course is accurately laid, these are broad reaches. Visitors from overseas always comment that we are way ahead in that respect. This is what the Lasers sail here in all sanctioned events, which do not always have a boat each for starting and finishing. That usually depends on the size of the fleets.

Masters Course.png

Edit: I forgot to add the course designators and the actual courses they use. The different courses make it easy to keep different fleets separated, for example Std, Radial and 4.7.
Designator Course Description: I = Inner, O = Outer. The numeric describes the number of windward legs.


I2 Start – 1 – 1A – 4S/4P – 1 – 2 – 3S/3P – 5 – Finish
I3 Start – 1 – 1A – 4S/4P – 1 – 1A – 4S/4P – 1 – 2 – 3S/3P – 5 – Finish
O1 Start – 1 – 2 – 3S/3P – 5 – Finish
O2 Start – 1 – 2 – 3S/3P – 2 – 3S/3P – 5 – Finish
O3 Start – 1 – 2 – 3S/3P – 2 – 3S/3P – 2 – 3S/3P – 5 – Finish

Like most river clubs Ryde will have to make do with what they can work out in terms of a course. There are also big mud flats to negotiate.

But the club has been a stronghold for NS14s which have a working daggerboard draft of perhaps more than 4ft.

I could only find an old image. I think the sailing club is on the beach at bottom to the left side of the near end of the bridge.



The expanse of water is great, but the sailors from the club are not nicknamed mudskippers for nothing - there is a LOT of very shallow water.

MIK

Concord Ryde is going ahead with the 8 footer event on 15th March. There will be two divisions - over and under 70 kg sailors.

Prize for each division will be a GoPro camera.

PD's will be most welcome, provided that they have appropriate insurance. Let's see how they go against the club's resident Bugs.

Sailing will be in accordance with the rules of racing and CRSC "A Class" SIs.

There is no perfect design, just a different set of compromises. CRSC wants to promote affordable sailing within a realistic urban context.

And for the person who thought that PDs were not "grand enough for a Sydney Club" CRSC is run entirely by its own volunteer labour - No staff, no pokies, no bar...
just an old fashioned dinghy club.

We did have an older gentleman bring his PD to the club a few years ago and ask us to "sort it out" - It had a polytarp sail on a heavy hardwood mast. No visibility on crowded water with 20 kt ferries plus 70 odd dinghies and many powerboats. The rudder and tiller kept falling apart. We would love to see how a fully sorted PD compared!

Michael,

Your photo is very out of date. CRSC now sails on the city side of Ryde Bridge. Courses are typically pairs of triangles through Bray's Bay and Major's Bay. Depth is seldom a problem except close to shore.

For those who have not met us before, CRSC is an old style club, no paid staff, no restaurant, no bar, no pokies... AND I BELIEVE none of the "Sydney Yachtee arrogance" anticipated at the beginning of this thread.

Historically, we have seen memberships run in families over generation. This has become harder as many young people have to set the priorities of their adult lives. The 8 Footer event is about improving the breed and sustaining the interest, not about particular designs.

To encourage experimentation, a GoPro camera will be offered as a prize for the over 70kg and under 70 kg divisions.

Please remember that you need race cover in your insurance. Check with your insurer, if it is a big problem, we can open a conversation with our broker, but I can't make a commitment at this stage. Those interest, please PM me for details.

Hope to meet lots of PD enthusiasts on the day.

Originally Posted by Joost

More discussion and information here:
gentlemanpen 8 Footer for adults? - Boat Design Forums

The thread of the above link was started by someone involved with the CRSC sailing club. This person also makes reference to, it seems, a sprit rigged OZRacer. He seems to have a strong opinion on the OZRacer regarding rig and the bow section.

Joost - that would have been me. I was asked by an elderly gentleman to "sort out" a PDR he had built for his grand kids. It had a massive hardwood mast, the polytarp sail set on it went down to the deck so no visibility to loward and a fixed rudder so that one had to wade out near waist deep before setting it up. When I got on the water, the tiller fell out of its mounting and having no steering the main sheet flogged, snagged on the pin which held the rudder in position and tried to pull it out. One of the most frightening experiences I have ever had in a dinghy, remember 20 kt + ferries rushing past.

I would not suggest that a well sorted PDR would present these problems, you will see from my recent posts, thet we are very keen for PDRs to participate.

Event was held as scheduled on 15 March. No PD's attended.

First race was cancelled as there was no wind. Second race was shortened to a single lap due to very light wind.

One Firebug got a flyer of a start and won by 4 minutes 32 seconds followed by an Optimist and another Bug 28 seconds behind.

An indication of the lack of wind is that the total sailing weight of the winner was 125 kg, while the second (Opti) was 65 kg and the following Firebug was 100 kg.

The large sail area of a Ozracer would probably and deservedly, have carried the day.

If any Ozracers want to visit CRSC in the future, please contact me.

Thank you for your interest

Hey, I thought Alex was going with his boat and somebody else was sailing it? The OZRacer would have cleaned up against a Firebug and an Opti!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, AlexN couldn't make it at the last moment.

In the conditions that prevailed, sail area would likely have dominated, in other conditions - perhaps a short chop, which we can experience at CRSC, are you so confident in the PDR?

That is why we want to "improve the 8 foot breed." Practical, but capable too.

The invitation, if not the cameras, is there!

Ross V

I've not sailed the PDR in chop, but I've sailed scows and they, both PDR and Ozracer, are scows. Just heel it, power up and send it!

I felt that I should explain why I couldn't make it, in case the doubtful think I was chickening out: we moved(into a much smaller) house on the 13th, the boat is still in temporary(?) storage, and we are still unpacking, sorting and sifting. The retrieval of the boat will depend on the outcome of a visit by our builder this afternoon (unless it's raining too heavily).

It's a pity that I couldn't participate in another respect: I had a brand new Really Simple Sails balance-lugs'l to try out.

At least in our new abode we have much more sunlight, can actually see lots of sky, and have a lovely view with a relatively distant horizon. And none of the persistent damp problems that dogged us previously, the current autumnal rains notwithstanding.

Originally Posted by RossV

Unfortunately, AlexN couldn't make it at the last moment.

In the conditions that prevailed, sail area would likely have dominated, in other conditions - perhaps a short chop, which we can experience at CRSC, are you so confident in the PDR?

That is why we want to "improve the 8 foot breed." Practical, but capable too.

The invitation, if not the cameras, is there!

Ross V

I sail my PDR in all conditions. And I am usually still out on the water well after the other boats have retired because of high winds or chop. The ride can be wet, but less wet in my opinion than an Opti, and it feels much safer as well. In most cases, the boat sails between the troughs, and hobby-horses over them.
My local club doesn't like it when I sail with the Opti's. The high stability and huge sail area give me an 'unfair advantage' according to them.
If I ever travel to Australia, I would be happy to sail an OzRacer or PDRacer against any eight footer.

Rick Landreville
Rosedale B.C. Canada
PDRacer World Champion 2010 and 2013.

You would be most welcome :)