Thread: Concord Ryde S/C looking for new Adult 8ft trainer - OzRacer?

In my opinion a very smart and legitimate approach of this sailing club and a great design challenge!

If 8 ft is the maximum desired length, this may pose a chance for a modified OZ-racer optimising the hull form (i.e. not in any way related to the PDR's rocker line which I understand can be bettered) and a more modern rig (resembling the one(s) on the boat(s) used in the club's sail training) with the regular sail controls.

If storage is the main issue, why not a nesting boat or take-a-part boat (2 pieces not nesting but easily stored next to each other) that can be stored on its transom at the far end of the garage?

It would be nice if a OZ-racer would enter the regatta to show a direction of what may work for the club.

A fat dinghy shape, will be most unduck like, so possibly acceptable to the established stuffy types.

Say an 8' (2.4 m) long, by 4' (1.2 m) beam, slab sided (I'd have a bit of flare forward to knock down spray), plumb ends type of thing, will displace about 250 pounds (114 kg) with just a few inches of draft. A simple duck rig, some clamp on appendages and you're off to the races.


PointyDuck.jpg

3" of draft shown, transom still clear at just over 200 pounds displacement.

I'd be very inclined to have an OzRacer go in the event. A well sailed one would really throw down the gauntlet and there has been so much development already.

I will have a word with Alex and some of the other localish OzRacer people and see what we can do.

The duck shape is not cool but gives enormous stability making it a fast accelerating, very comfortable boat for beginners to sail in a very wide range of conditions. it is not untypical for a new sailor who has completed their duck to be out sailing in 20 knots of breeze on the second or third time out. Not many boats can pull that off even with sail areas half that of an OzRacer.

As soon as you go to a pointy bow most of the above is lost.

I also think that the people that have liked the ducks also very much buy into the idea of something so unassuming can sail so well and handle properly in such a wide range of conditions. That includes quite a few good sailors - 16ft skiff champions, A-class cat national champion, Queensland multihull offshore racing champ ... and more.

So that's the way I would go ... and make the argument that something that can sail well around a course in a variety of conditions can cost $400 to $1200 total ... that's every last cent.

MIK

I make the point that the club seems more miffed at losing experienced sailors once they grow up & out of home.
Ease of handling is probably icing on a cake, rather than a key ingredient.
Ok... very thick icing.

Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

I make the point that the club seems more miffed at losing experienced sailors once they grow up & out of home.
Ease of handling is probably icing on a cake, rather than a key ingredient.
Ok... very thick icing.

The problem is well known for anyone running sailing courses ... where do the students go after a few sailing sessions?

From the ad

Losing graduates of its training program

So these are beginning adults with a few lessons under their belts.

I would immediately draw attention to these threads from beginning sailors on this forum as how well beginners go with the OzRacer.

Steve Canaga

Snap but no pop (in the mast). Yesterday I took the boat out and gave it a go in 20+mph winds. I am happy to report that that with some great advice from Michael that the bow of the boat pops up after loading up, I got past my concerns.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/j...ml#post1671246

Mark Milam
Just the pic of a very nice lugsail

Hi MIK
I read the "losing graduates" as meaning juniors with a season or three under their belts, not moving up into the seniors.
I see there is more than one way to read that now.

Q: If designing the OzRacer from scratch - a clean sheet of A3 and free of the original PDR rule, what would you change ?

cheers
AJ

Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

Q: If designing the OzRacer from scratch - a clean sheet of A3 and free of the original PDR rule, what would you change ?

I had the same question in mind.

And what would you change in view of the boat being aimed at a sailing club rather than the Duck crowd (who happen to be more exposed to lug sails, sprit sails ,etc.)?

Joost

Hi AJ

I'm thinking hard ... but there is not a lot I would change. The original concept was loose enough to accommodate the improvements we wanted to make (none involving materials).

I think there is a good argument for optimising something that is so very simple rather than dreaming up something new

The thing that sailing the Oz so much taught me was that performance is really down to the rig (particularly the matching of the sail to the spars), keeping everything light and stiff 9component and hull design) and making the best foils possible.

There really is so much performance out of the boat it shows that the hull is just an area where, as long as you don't do anything stupid and all the above is right ... it will just go.

The problem with an 8ft dinghy for an adult is the likely weight range is probably about 120lbs to 220lbs. Theres already a lot of rocker in a duck to give the appropriate displacement - cutting the front half into a triangular shape and pinching in the transom a bit is going to remove an awful lot of the potential displacement so the rocker will have to be very deep.

I'd rather not mess with it - and know that anything else is probably going to be in the process of being optimised - where the Oz has had five years of development. At the beginning people could just jump in and sail well but now we have a reefable boat with a much better rig setup to get shape from the sails, we know how big the spars have to be etc.

To go back to your question ... I would be very scared trying to come up with something that at 8ft was actually faster and better to sail than the Oz - I couldn't guarantee that it would be superior - it is very likely that with the weights we are really looking at that something cooler looking could be slower.

MIK

What would happen if you would pinch both transoms 10 cm on both sides (total of 20 cm less width than the center of the boat), make the front transom (bow) a bit more of a diagonal and would have a slight V in the front third of the boat only to prevent the bow's bottom corners from digging into waves?

The Duck just fits the bill for an 8 footer accomodating an adult. Firstly it can carry the weight of an adult very nicely. Secondly, its surprising stability means it can carry an enormous sail so it has a rather big engine for its size. I'm flat out trying to think of anything that would beat it around a racecourse and handle a 20kt breeze as well with the full 80sq ft of sail. 15-20 kt sea breezes is pretty much expected on our coastal waters in summer.

Either RV or Mk2 format. I'm thinking that the shape is already a bit radical and people may be put off with the offset foil of the RV. If it's to be used primarily for 8' club racing maybe the MK2 is the better version? (I'm fully aware though that the RV still has World Championship credentials!)

Maybe it's time for a name change to suit the Australian city sailing scene. What about the GDR? Garage Duck Racer.

Hi Joost,
I don't think making such changes will have perceivable benefits. There is sooooo much horsepower available and the boat doesn't hesitate even with the corners digging in a bit.

It is also an incentive to keep the boat flat - transferable into every other sailing class.

The only weak point is that you cant heel much to reduce wetted surface ... though you can a bit ... but the huge sail area compensates.

MIK

Originally Posted by woodeneye

The Duck just fits the bill for an 8 footer accomodating an adult. Firstly it can carry the weight of an adult very nicely. Secondly, its surprising stability means it can carry an enormous sail so it has a rather big engine for its size. I'm flat out trying to think of anything that would beat it around a racecourse and handle a 20kt breeze as well with the full 80sq ft of sail. 15-20 kt sea breezes is pretty much expected on our coastal waters in summer.

Either RV or Mk2 format. I'm thinking that the shape is already a bit radical and people may be put off with the offset foil of the RV. If it's to be used primarily for 8' club racing maybe the MK2 is the better version? (I'm fully aware though that the RV still has World Championship credentials!)

Maybe it's time for a name change to suit the Australian city sailing scene. What about the GDR? Garage Duck Racer.

Howdy Bruce,

The OzRacer Mk2 is a slightly more complicated build ... but the RV builds like a dream - much less wood (expensive in oz and expensive to ship).

I would be inclined to leverage both boats into an RV with centrecase. You are spot on about the unacceptability of the centrecase which is why the Mk2 has a centrecase - just for that reason. Also a centrecase is faster as the leeboard means slight tendency toward weather helm on one tack and slight tendency to lee helm on the other - my guess is it is best to have tiny weather helm on one tack and a bit more on the other.

Name? What else other than the Oz CR24? (sounds like a spray lubricant). It's a tradition to name after the club or a geographic feature.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Hi Joost,

The only weak point is that you cant heel much to reduce wetted surface ... though you can a bit ... but the huge sail area compensates.

MIK

G'day MIK

Watching the way the Mk.2 glides in almost no wind at all, water sliding straight under the
horizontal bow & almost ripple-less out from under the stern, I can't see that heeling to
reduce wetted area would be of great benefit. As you say, the relatively huge sail area compensates.

I am somewhat surprised however, that you feel that hull shape plays so little part in performance.
Particularly in view of your highly valued & educational discourses on scow Moth design developments.
I would have thought pulling in the ends (and maybe tweaking the rocker) would be high on your list !
Not a great penalty in displacement, but offering possibility of pulling the bow down out of the clouds at high speed.

Alan J

Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

I would have thought pulling in the ends (and maybe tweaking the rocker) would be high on your list !
Not a great penalty in displacement, but offering possibility of pulling the bow down out of the clouds at high speed.

I was thinking the same thing: pulling in the ends, tweaking of the rocker line and perhaps having some V in the front end of the boat.

1. This would make the boat a bit easier to handle in the chop (no digging in of the corners) and allow one to heel the boat to reduce wetted surface in very light winds.
2. But mostly I was making the suggestion because I am not certain that a Duck will be accepted by the average sailing club crowd: the square hull shape is too far away from what the club’s members are used to and the rig is very much different as well. Even if the boat outperforms any other 8 footer on the water, that may still not be sufficient…

It has taken me some years to appreciate what a Duck can do and to look beyond its looks seeing an extremely cheap, easy to build, very light capable boat accomplishing something extraordinary. But the fact that it took me so long to see what matters, and I am sure that the same will apply to many other people, is, I believe, not to be underestimated.

So why not create a new 8 footer based on the OZ-Racer that is a bit more “yachty” looking, keeping all the good things of the OZ-Racer but making any possible tweaks along the way. Yes, the OZ-Racer will do the job, but the boat first needs to be accepted by a crowd normally not very open minded when it comes to boats to become a success!

Joost