Thread: Drop-in Sail for Quick Canoe

Originally Posted by paul.helbert

Hi Clinton,

It would be especially helpful in keeping the comparisons of apples to apples and oranges to oranges if you were to also be using MIK's Drop-In Rig. With my narrow version of the canoe, the little 21 ft sail made the boat go well and never felt like there was too much heeling force. The whole rig fit into the canoe or into a car neatly, but after awhile I got to feeling that she could handle more.

I think this is an interesting point. This boat is set up to be built on the cheap side. The sail is quite low stress too, so matches the idea of using polytarp, meaning it is possible to build one or more sails at little cost.

Another strategy is to build the bigger sail, knowing it will work with the wider canoe OK, but get used to the boat with a reefed sailplan ... just like Paul did.

He is using buoyancy bags ... I had a look on the net and was not able to find buoyancy bags on the net available in Australia. So for ease it probably makes sense to build the boat from scratch for sailing by building buoyancy tanks in

MIK

OK, I have another QC ready to make, it was always the intention to do two.

If I build the bouancy tanks in, a rudder and either lee or centre board, are there any other 'mods' to consider if I am putting in a mast?

I am happy do do a 21 and 39' sail, however they will both have to go on the same mast.

Happy to do polytarp or whatever suits the 'QC' theory.

Basically, I'm happy to push the next QC into a 'very near total sailing beast'... but only if I also get the option to go stupidly, stupidly fast on high wind, low chop days.

Is this a direction for the QC?
v1 - quick canoe
v2 - quick sailer
v3 - somewhere in between

Lots of good ideas. Air bags are not cheap. I already had them from whitewater
use. Built-in buoyancy, although maybe a bit heavier avoids some of
the problems of the bags: how to attach them, moisture trapped against the
hull, expansion on a hot day can distort or destroy a boat, they
are attractive to mice and they need to be kept taught while cartopping or are subject to wind damage...

Originally Posted by Clinton1

OK, I have another QC ready to make, it was always the intention to do two.

If I build the bouancy tanks in, a rudder and either lee or centre board, are there any other 'mods' to consider if I am putting in a mast?

I am happy do do a 21 and 39' sail, however they will both have to go on the same mast.

Happy to do polytarp or whatever suits the 'QC' theory.

Basically, I'm happy to push the next QC into a 'very near total sailing beast'... but only if I also get the option to go stupidly, stupidly fast on high wind, low chop days.

Is this a direction for the QC?
v1 - quick canoe
v2 - quick sailer
v3 - somewhere in between

I've been thinking for some time that perhaps MIK would be interested in starting from scratch at a quick, light, purpose built sailing canoe instead of pushing this one beyond the ridiculous. Sort of a son of Beth and of QC, thus: MacBeth, Fritzbeth, Bethson, Bethovich, Bethensky (only guessing as to which ending might be "son of")...

The boat could have its hull shape optimized for sailing. The partner / leeboard brace(s) could be permanently a part of the boat. Same with buoyancy compartments. Mast step position could be optimal.

Whatsay?

Paul

Sort of Off Topic Alert!

I just looked the Slavic "son of" endings. Then my wife informed me that it is "Fitz", not "Fritz" and that Fitz is often the bastard son. So the bastard son of QC and Beth might be Fitzquick. This turns out to be only the tip of the iceburg. Have a look at: Family name - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , or Google "surnames indicating "son of" in different languages" and have at it.

Enough. I'm going back to sanding.

Dimensions for my new larger lugs'l for canoe William Henry Harrison. Sorry about mixing metric and ancient measuring systems, but I am comfortable with either and don't generally convert.


Mast: 10' – 2”, 39mm tapers to 29mm. Bottom section reinforced w/ glass
Yard: 7' - 3 1/2”, 30mm tapers to 27mm - hollow (maybe a bit too stiff ???)
Old yard: 7' – 4 1/2”, 25mm no taper - (too bendy)
Boom: 7' – 10”, 33mm tapers to 27mm - hollow


Luff: 56”
Head: 78”
Foot: 82”
Leech: 91”
Throat to Clew: 87”
Heron's Method gives area of sail (without figuring for rounding): 37 square feet (about 3.5 square meters)

Halyard: 26', (not longer) Dyneema / Spectra 4mm

Downhaul: 5' (5' to 6'), Dyneema / Spectra 4mm

Thankyou hugely for this Paul,

I will have a look and tweak it.

I do think it is a little bit too large and will probably be shooting around the 40 sq ft mark.

BTW, what is "Heron's Method"?

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Thankyou hugely for this Paul,

I will have a look and tweak it.

I do think it is a little bit too large and will probably be shooting around the 40 sq ft mark.

BTW, what is "Heron's Method"?

MIK

I'll look forward to seeing it tweaked, especially the spars. The real reason it ended up this size is that I had an old sail to cut which limited me. In order to get it peaked up a bit I set it with the tack fairly close to the mast and the yard fastened right at the mid point.

Here are links to the formula of Heron of Alexandria for the area of a triangle (from sides, no need to have a right angle):

Heron's formula - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Heron's Calculation of triangle area

The second link has an automagical calculator near the bottom of the page. Just divide the sail into triangles, plug in the side lengths and then add the results to have the area of an odd sized sail. Don't know why but they didn't teach this one when I was in school either.

Cheers,

Paul

Last weekend I went to St Michaels, MD for the Mid Atlantic Small Craft Festival at the Chesapeake Maritime Museum. There were over two hundred small boats there and I got to see the first sailing canoes I had ever seen other than my own. Folks were favorably impressed with the handling of the Quick Canoe and it won a second place ribbon in the contemporary class. The judges really liked the concept. In the open sailing race I finished last but was by far the smallest boat in the event.

I came back with tons of ideas but one is that I want to go faster. More sail may be in order. So, since I already had the 21 sq ft original drop-in sail and my larger 38 sq ft one, why not rig them both together as a yawl or ketch? The drop-in rig pivots the leeboard at the mast partner so adding a mizzen throws the CE way aft unless I rake both masts forward and shift the sails forward on the masts, which is what I have been working on today (or by separating leeboard support from the partner and stepping the main mast forward which I don't want to do just now). Looks funny with the masts raked forward. Most masts rake aft or are near vertical.. Anyone know reasons this shouldn't work? http://www.flickr.com/photos/37106513@N03 /5062968511/ I guess I'll find out by trying it tomorrow...but thought someone might save me from unnecessary crash and burn if I've missed some major consideration.

Great report!

There is no reason the rig won't work - but there may be some basic problems with sheeting angles etc that can be sorted through.

Between you and Clinton it almost needs a pure sailing version with permanent mast steps and buoyancy tanks.

MIK

I was at St. Michael's too! I had a great time. I took my Marisol skiff and a Storer PDRacer (Watermelon) it drew lots of talk and my daughter received a 1st place ribbon from best under 18 builder. I see that some great pictures are up from the weekend StMichaels-2010

Jonathan

Great pictures!

What boat did your daughter build? the PDR?

Yes, the white PDR with pink and green dots.

I've gone through it three times and can't find it?