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  1. #1
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    Default Drop-in Sail for Quick Canoe

    Howdy all and MIK,

    A year or so ago, I built MIK's Drop-in Sail Rig. The plans did not figure on me making my own sail but MIK and I discussed the amount of curvature for a polytarp sail scaled down from the 89 sq ft sail in his OZ II PDR plans (a sail I had already successfully made and used on the PDR). I sailed the scaled down version on two different canoes: an Esquif Presage and a narrow (22" beam at chines) prototype of his Quick Canoe. In both these boats the little 21 sq ft sail was a good match except that it just seemed too small, especially in mid-summer light winds). So, two weeks ago I finished a larger (39 sq ft) sail (with 2 lines of reef points) for the Quick Canoe. It is scaled between the little one and the big one. So far I have only had it out three times in light and fickle winds and it seems that I have too much weight aloft. It is plumb scary in anything gusty or much over seven knots.

    All spars including the mast are eight feet long although I am only using about 7 1/2 ft of the yard, which is made by gluing together four pieces of 1/4" x 1/4" quarter round, so 25mm. It bends a lot when loaded, perhaps a bit more that the two inches I calculated when I made the sail but it does not seem as if it is ready to break. In these first tests the boom was 37mm closet rod, same as the mast. The boom had very little flex, so tonight I ripped it into quarters and am reassembling it with epoxy glue as was done with the quarter rounds of the yard. I did not get the cuts precisely centered so I cut two closet rods and can reassemble them as one of 28mm diameter and one of 34mm diameter. Thus I can have available the 24mm, or 28mm, or 34mm reassembled dowels for spars. I could plane out a bit of material from the flat cuts before reassembly if it seems worth the trouble in order to produce taper. I could also cut off the internal corners to make them hollow. What I'm looking for is a rule of thumb or general idea of proper diameters for spars for a sail of this size on a little boat like this.

    MIK never intended my narrow Quick Canoe prototype for sailing (it was drawn solely to search the limits of stability) but sail she does, so we know that the standard version can be sailed, too.

    Until now and with the small sail, I have done all steering by weight shift, heeling and adjustment of the leeboard and only a minimal touch of the paddle, but with the larger sail it looks as if I am going to have to make a rudder. All that weight shifting would be too tricky or impossible while sitting on the rail to keep her upright (if I ever get into real wind with her).

    So, back to my question... I can continue along the path of "if it didn't break it was too heavy, and if it did it was too light", but would value guidance. We are having a messabout at Mount Storm, West Virginia in five days, so I'll finishing up the new spars, mentioned above, on Wednesday and Thursday of this week. What size spars should I be aiming for?

    Thanks,

    Paul
    Last edited by paul.helbert; 27th July 2010 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Trying to add an image.
    Mo Wetta - Mo Betta!
    Larger sails, smaller boats!

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
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    Hi Paul,

    It is a little bit paradoxical, but the spars just need to be strong enough to lie the boat over on its side. That is the maximum force the sail can put on the hull.

    The bigger sail will make the boat lay down faster - and that is the only difference from the sail side.

    However if you jump on the gunwale to prevent it from flipping then this adds some extra load.

    I did use a spreadsheet to roughly work out the stiffness of a spar. It is set up for yachts really, but I fiddled with it until it started to look sensible for our little boats - like BETH, the PDR and the GIS.

    The skinny version of the Quick Canoe is so far different that I think the spreadsheet will be completely wrong.

    You have the rig on hand ... So I would suggest trying it and if the mast bends too much go back to your gentler sailing mode while making a new mast a bit thicker. For example our initial WAAAAY too flexy PDR masts were 55mm and we increased to 62 to make a very nice mast indeed.

    So see if it is too flexible and then make a new one with a bigger diameter - if you give me an estimate of the mast bend I can work from that. But would be expecting a 10% diameter increase would be quite a jump.

    Best wishes
    Michael

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New Hampshire
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    So for the past week after seeing Paul's photos of the sailing rig, I've been having a big brainstorm over here.

    I'm on a super budget now, but I live in New England, the Canoe Capital of the World. New England with its myriad of waterways, lakes, rivers, ocean, is perfect for canoes, and for sailing canoes. My father has a 1950's Old Town sailing canoe but it's so nice and I beat my boats up so much, I'd rather build a cheaper one that I don't mind banging up.

    I'm especially fond of the Adirondacks, after having lived there for a spell. Beautiful lakes and ponds and rivers, connected by short portages. The biggest wilderness areas East of the Mississippi. But it would also be nice to have the option to sail some of those bigger lakes.

    SO I came up with a crazy scheme.

    I would like to build the standard Quick Canoe- maybe install two small watertight compartments in the bow and stern.

    Then, I would like to build another one, at 1/3 size and glue on a top. This would be my ama/outrigger, and it would fit into the Quick Canoe for cartopping ease. One small leeboard, a small rudder. The outrigger's bottom would be positioned a little higher than the bottom of the Quick Canoe to help induce heel so I don't get the slapslapslap of the flat bottom.

    I've ordered a bunch of sailing canoe and outrigger canoe building books.

    The rig, maybe a Sunfish rig? Maybe my Old Town rig?

    What do you think?

  5. #4
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    Sounds like a great idea, should work very well and easily transportable.

    BTW it's terrific to hear someone getting so much use and enjoyment from their boat.
    Mike
    "Working to a rigidly defined method of doubt and uncertainty"

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    SO I came up with a crazy scheme.

    I would like to build the standard Quick Canoe- maybe install two small watertight compartments in the bow and stern.

    Then, I would like to build another one, at 1/3 size and glue on a top. This would be my ama/outrigger, and it would fit into the Quick Canoe for cartopping ease. One small leeboard, a small rudder. The outrigger's bottom would be positioned a little higher than the bottom of the Quick Canoe to help induce heel so I don't get the slapslapslap of the flat bottom.

    I've ordered a bunch of sailing canoe and outrigger canoe building books.

    The rig, maybe a Sunfish rig? Maybe my Old Town rig?

    What do you think?
    If you're building an outrigger, you're probably better with a V section outrigger as Mik has designed in his outrigger plans rather than one with a flat bottom like a smaller quick canoe - more lateral resistance for going to windward, also simpler and quicker to build.

    It would probably be best to get Mik's outrigger plans and follow them, he'll have sorted all the issues and details already.

    I wonder if his set-up with only a single outrigger would work for ease of transport, or are both necessary/will both fit in a quick canoe?

    The standard quick canoe may be stable enough to carry a reasonable rig with leeboard and rudder but without any outrigger, I guess it's just as stable as Mik's Beth, so can carry a similar sized rig without an outrigger. No outrigger would save a lot of trouble on portages, especially along narrow paths through trees

    Worth considering would be really small outriggers on a single crossbeam as keyhavenpotter has on his Shearwater Sailing Canoe.

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/b...iggers-118754/

    It may be possible to make inflatable PVC floats for those outrigger floats.

    I've been thinking similar thoughts, something that can go car rooftop - lake - river -portage - lake, and sail really well on the lake parts. Currently I'm working on a folding skin on frame sailing design about the size of a big canoe that will go in a bag that can fit on the bus or aeroplane so I can go bus - lake - river -portage - lake - bus home. Using the same carbon tube stringers I already have on my single folding kayak.(Folding Sea Kayak - a set on Flickr)

    The rest of the frame out of scraps of ply and paulownia left over from the Goat build.

    I'm still in the initial design stage - figuring out size, shape, rig details, structural issues.

    More when I've made some more progress on the design.

    Ian

  7. #6
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    I did not know that Mik had outrigger plans. Oops. Those would be best.

    Portage wise, the outrigger would easily disassemble, I wouldn't be carrying the whole thing through the woods that would be impossible. Also, I like the outrigger idea because I want to carry more sail.

    There's a point where the boat won't go any fast though, so I guess that's what will have to calculated. How big a sail can one put on a 15' canoe with an outrigger before reaching hull speed. Would the Quick Canoe plane? Beth planes right?

    Edit: Ian, great idea too. I look forward to seeing it.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    This is a great thread, I don't know how I missed it.

  9. #8
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    It just so happens ...

    I have never really publicised it but there is a sailing setup for the outriggers. they use the forward crossbeam as the mast partner and include drawings for a basic polytarp sail.

    I went to the lateen rig because I could move the Centre of Effort well back to make use of a deep rudder for a bit more lateral resistance in deep water - Hobie style. It is free with the outrigger plan on requiest.

    As you can see from the PDF it was designed to match the eureka or any other canoe with somewhat flattened crossbeams from the original - all included in the supplement.

    With the outriggers, as they provide a lot of the lateral resistance, it makes sense to sit to keep them well immersed. This would also reduce any slapping, but I doubt the slapping would be a lot unless light laden and sitting aft.

    The aft beam is a good place to mount a trolling motor. The only thing left in the canoe when the contrivances are removed are the mast step, the tie down points on the sides and the rudder fittings.

    MIK

  10. #9
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    Can one of those outriggers be used instead of two, if we extend the akas a bit? That way the outrigger could fit into the Quick Canoe for cartopping or sticking it into the back of a station wagon?

  11. #10
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    If you were going that route you would need a longer outrigger hulls so the scaled down quick canoe ama might be better for its volume and extra length for the sailing ability.

  12. #11
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    Actually .. I think I am wrong ... if it sails OK with the small amas now it will be OK in a one sided configuration. The only difference will be the lateral resistance. The version of this I have sailed was quick and fun and went upwind quite well if you sat so the leeward hull was well immersed and didn't try to point too high - you make up for it with speed - LOTS of speed.

    So with a one sided arrangement there might be a need for a leeboard or something for when the outrigger is on the windward side.

    Like Paul's Quick Canoe it tacked pretty slowly too often needing help from a paddle.

    MIK

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post

    Like Paul's Quick Canoe it tacked pretty slowly too often needing help from a paddle.

    MIK
    Not a lot of inertia to carry through the eye of the wind so I often use the paddle assist for insurance when not much wind. Maybe was slowing the boat by throwing the leeboard and my weight too far forward to initiate the tack. Works better if I return to neutral helm sooner. Also the larger sail, as the wind picks up, is starting to present a whole new set of lessons.

    By the way. I've never used outriggers, but worry that if one was flying above the water and then touched down, it might sort of "stub the toe" and pivot the boat around it. Is this not a problem?
    Mo Wetta - Mo Betta!
    Larger sails, smaller boats!

  14. #13
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    Lots of information/pictures of sailing canoes in different configurations on this website:

    Solway Dory | The Home of Canoe Sailing

    Also links to many other sites with info on sailing canoes:

    Solway Dory Links

    Ian

  15. #14
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    Ok,

    I almost had myself a heart attack on the weekend... a 5km easy paddle out for a comfort speed check, then a 5km 'how fast can I get back' paddle.

    What this confirmed is that I want a sail for the QC155.

    Is there a 'drop in with minimal modification' sail set up for the QC?
    Cheers,
    Clinton

    "Use your third eye" - Watson

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/clinton_findlay/

  16. #15
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    MIK's drop-in canoe sailing rig Duckworks Boatbuilders Supply will work very nicely with the Quick Canoe. I first used it on a general purpose Canadian canoe, and for the past several months on a much narrower version of the Quick Canoe. I made the 2 square meter sail and spars he shows in the plan. The plan is an early one and not as detailed as his later ones, but the info is there or he will supply it.

    This past weekend we sailed it in a messabout with a new addition... a rudder. What a great idea! Makes everything so much easier. Several people sailed it in twelve mph breezes and found it very well behaved.

    I'm having trouble uploading photos right now, but pictures from will follow shortly, I hope.
    Mo Wetta - Mo Betta!
    Larger sails, smaller boats!

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