Not quite ignoring you. If I don't need to do a full plan of documentation and we follow most of the goat structure it looks more feasible as a racing special. But still some things to be discussed.

Make a new thread if you want to discuss them. Mike .. you can put your email to me up as a point to discuss.

MIK

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Joost, Great summary, thanks! I took interest in the seaworthiness of the Goat as I hope to be able to get into stinky conditions...well not hope, but in case I do. Actually, small craft advisories make for great sailing here in Maine.

I was interested that the need for a mizzen seemed non existent. I always find that having it handy for getting off a dock or beach, heaving to, etc. makes a sail-and-oar boat better. I am happy to see that the Goat would make a great sail-and-oar boat. This is why I drew a mizzen in:

GIS Yawl

I also took note about the frame breaking. To second Mik's notion, it sounds like you had some grain runout in the piece, this the diagonal break. And if there is still wood there, then pry the break open a bit, syringe fill it with thin epoxy, then clamp it down. I am probably using Cypress or Spruce for my framing, stronger woods than cedar, but if I had grain runout in them I loose that strength...most of the strength comes from proper grain orientation.

Now that I have sailed the Goat, I am interested in hearing about how she felt on the wind. What was she like sailing upwind in chop? We get that here!

For rowing, why not add a station forward off the forward tank, use shorter oars (the spacing would be about 4', so 7 1/2' oars, which stow easier than 9'-ers. I was happy to here that the rudder was useful in acting as a skeg. I wonder if we can come up with a tiller arrangement that can get out of the way so someone could sit on the floor just forward of aft tank.

Cheers,
Clint

Another way is to run a carbon or glass tape up the inside face. The ply will stop the outside face against the hull from splitting and the tape on the inside will prevent it there.

I did work once on a 32ft balsa strip boat that had ribs of 3/4 thick balsa standing up 2" with a unidirectional carbon tape along the inside edge and glassed with 2oz (70gsm) glass.

Adds little weight and not much labour. But just wood works fine if the grain is straight.

MIK

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MIK and Clint,

Thanks for your repair tips. Method I will probably use for the frame is fill it with epoxy, clamp it, and glass the back side (l have quite light glass available). Shouldn't be that much work and this should also not do any damage to the looks of the boat.

With regards to the mizzen: they are handy as I have see them used to great extent in Scotland. It does make life easier when hoisting or lowering the main for example when transitioning from sailing to rowing or vice versa. I just don't mind using a paddle or oar a bit when doing this.

Sailing to windward is fine but I feel it is the Goat's slowest course (at least that is the impression that I get). Pounding is minimal in a chop and the GIS does sail to windward confidently. On a reach and down wind she is very fast.

I am not sure that the layout of the GIS allows an easy addition of another thwart: sides to high in the front, boat quite narrow and the mast might be in the way when sitting on the front deck.

What would be handy with regards to the tiller arrangement (I have seen them used in the Raid) is two tillers: one longer tiller for sailing and one shorter tiller for rowing allowing the crew to sit in the middle of the boat rather than to the side.

Regards, Joost

Howdy,

The way I think about the event is that this year none of the big sail area skiffs were there with their big teams of rowers.

The Goat showed how a simple light boat with a long waterline length (in every way a minimal boat compared to the others) requiring no special building skills in terms of difficulty or the size of the project is quite close and allowed Joost and Crew to feel they were 100% participating in a meaningful way.

My feeling is perhaps to look at some of the detail design without changing much at all to tidy up the weak points without losing the strong ones.

So need to focus on sorting out the rowing and the upwind performance.

What was your feeling Joost, was it that you kept losing speed or did waves hit the boat and knock the bow away from the most efficient angle? Or that it made too much leeway? All of them point to different possibilities for improvement.

Did you fit leaning straps?

I saw in one picture at least that you had both moved forward upwind - did that make much difference or did you lose too much speed.

MIK

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Hello Mik,

Big teams of rowers in big sail skiffs (like last year’s winner Multimono) are a whole different category I am not looking to compete with.

Rowing is the main point to sort out. Tandem set up is required IMHO; side by side rowing will cause a lot of imbalance in the boat which would need to be corrected all the time. In the Raid Caledonia, all boats rowed by teams sitting side by side without someone on the tiller lost a lot of time in comparison to people rowing in tandem set up sculling the boat. The GIS being so light weight difference of the different crew members would also have a big impact…

No leaning straps are fitted. They might make a small difference however.
The bow was not knocked away by waves at all and the boat did not seem to make much lee way. Main problem was that in gusts the sail is quite big and you need to spill the sail to prevent capsizing. Next to this, my sail has a very flat cut where some depth might enable to sail the boat faster to windward.

In these type of events you row when the winds are too light to move you forward with any real speed. The total sail for raids might therefore possibly be slightly reduced (maybe 1 m2 less) with more intermediate reefing options and with more adjustment possibilities (perhaps a kicker but definately the sail not laced to the boom). One also tends to sail in quite strong winds where you don’t want to reef as it usually takes up too much time.

We are always sitting quite in front. Crew (Viola – my beloved girlfriend) on the thwart (in very light winds she moves to just after the front deck) and me just after the thwart either on the gunwale or sitting/kneeling on the cockpit floor. I have had feed back from other sailors that the transom than beautifully clears the water.

Only on downwind courses with a lot of wind I move to the aft deck to balance the boat out when surfing down the waves.

Please let me know if I can provide any further information.

Best regards, Joost

Hi Joost,

I have to apologise straight away to Viola!!! I only saw pictures from a distance of her in 4 jumpers and the wet weather gear on the oiutside.

I thought she was a man! Terrible ... sorry!!!

Ok .. so if the boat didn't make leeway and didn't get its head knocked off by waves then the centreboard is big enough and there is enough weather helm to make her bite upwind.

Were all the other boats you were up against longer than you? Might be pure waterline length.

I think the smaller first reef would be a great idea. Also when I took the battens out of the sail my boat felt ... "turbocharged". Worked that way on Peter's GIS and BETH too.

Give it a try in medium winds next time.

When overpowered the top of the sail needs to flatten, which it seems to but if there is a chop you need fullness/depth in the bottom of the sail to push the boat along. I would agree with going loose footed - even in identical boats it can make the difference between getting to the top mark in the first bunch or midfleet ... PARTICULARLY in gusty winds and rough water.

I've been thinking about rowing and also where the crew sits ... A couple of people have wanted to use the boat on more extreme trips and I generally try to dissuade them because it is so much bailing if it goes over.

I have thought and even suggested about extending the mid seat forward and boxing it in to close up more volume. This would make a platform in the middle of the boat.

So now am thinking of making it lower ... just enough so a lower centrecase doesn't spit water. to create a platform big enough for two removable seats. I will have to see how far seats need to be apart for rowing.

A full false floor is great, but it weighs so much and is a lot more building.

One of my concerns too is a much bigger boat with only the same power from two people might have more trouble punching upwind against waves. If you imagine shrinking the Goat smaller and with a two person crew you will be able to punch upwind against anything. It will be slower because of length ... but lose less speed, so there must be a sweet point somewhere (ie the best compromise between length and crew power)

Another potential improvement would be to reduce the mast weight ... Joost ... any sign of a problem from the mast? The mast is not light and contributes to pitching.

I can see that the rowing positions might require a longer boat, but for cheapness, simplicity and fun it is nice to keep the current size.

MIK

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But try the sail without battens and see how it looks then.

MIK

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Joost, we reckon in our local lug rigged Scows that, even with many years sailing experience, it takes at least two seasons racing to learn just how to set and control the balanced lug rig in all conditions. I learn something new every time I sail, even after 8 years racing them.

It's a fascinating rig, very easy to set and sail with but so much to learn to get the best performance out of. With our local Scows and Sanders sails there are two main issues.

1) massive downhaul is used to get good upwind performance in strong winds, hence the 6:1 downhaul. You just pull as hard as you can. Less so in lighter winds but still some for upwind work.

2) the tension on the yard is super critical. The downhaul tension has to be pulling only at the front of the yard, so it is essential that the upper throat clew is secured to the front of the yard and thus all the downhaul stops there. The outhaul at the head is then adjusted and this adjustment is super critical. On my Scow there will be about 1" of slack before the downhaul is applied.

Then on our Scows the downhaul is applied and we look for when the luff lifts as you rotate the boat into the wind. It has to be at the belly at the junction between yard and mast. If the yard section of sail luffs first there is too much tension on the yard.

This adjustment makes a huge difference to the upwind performance of our lug rigs. Your sail may be different, but I thought an explanation of how our lug rigs work, might shed some light on setting these fascinating rigs. Massive apologies if "telling grandma how to suck eggs"

Brian

No offence taken Mik!

Most other boats that sail to windward a bit faster were longer: Ness Yawl and the School boats have a longer waterline length. I will try the sail without the battens to see whether it makes a difference. They are very flexible however, so I do not expect that much of a difference.

With regards to the sail I think loose footed sail would do the job. 9 m2 full sail area and than perhaps reefs for 7.5 m2, 6.5 m2 and 5.5 m2. The sturdier boom required for a loose footed sail would also allow easier/faster reefing as cleats can be mounted.

Our mast is the square hollow one and it does not seem to contribute to pitching at all. I got a lot of compliments on the mast for being wooden. The only way to make it lighter would be a carbon one (not sure what the weight difference would be). I have to go to the shop and buy scales to obtain the weights of all components.

I wouldn’t want the boat to be much bigger. But maybe .5 meter of length extra would enable an easy and good set up for rowing with 2 persons in tandem. It would off course be great if it could be integrated in the current GIS!

I think the boat can handle quite rough weather but I would not use the boat on very extreme trips. Than I agree that self-bailing would be required. For raids and such and day sailing I feel however that it is not really necessary and that a false floor would compromise both weight and ease of construction.

Best regards,

Joost

Dear Brian,

Thank you for your extensive explanation of how your rig works.

Balance lug rigs are new to me and although I like to think I understand the basics (like the set up currently on my GIS with just a downhaul), a full understanding of how your more complicated set up works would indeed take a lot of time to master!

I therefore really appreciate your feed back and am for sure considering a new sail (same mast) according to how you use it on your scow.

Kind regards, Joost

Howdy Joost, might be nice to rig the boat on its side and take some sail depth measurements at three heights.

Wonder how flat the sail is at the top. It would be possible just to cut the top with more round (a minor job) and loose foot the bottom to have much more power.

Or stiffen up the yard ... but if you are carrying excessive sail rather than reefing I would suggest keeping it pretty bendy.

Do I have your email address? I will send you the drawing of the cool boom for the RAID41

MIK

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I just sent you a PM. Thanks!

Hi Joost,

I didn't get it - can you email me at storerm@storerboatplans.com?

MIK

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Hello Mik,

Just gave it another go. Please let me know if case you have not received it.

Regards,

Joost