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Thread: Eureka Canoe

  1. #121
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    Hi Doug,

    Good to see the boat has recovered well from its modification. Amazing difference the varnish makes.

    I think when you hit the water it will be different from how it was before. It certainly looks quite different from your posts earlier before you pushed the width out.

    For those that haven't been following the full thread; the plans for this 15'6 boat used two temporary spreaders to hold the ply panels at the right widths while the boat is stitched and glass taped. It worked fine for the smaller boat (13ft). But it did produce highly variable final widths with the longer boat.

    Stitch and glue never gives an exact repeatable hullshape - as the plywood will take the bend quite differently from boat to boat. But less variation is certainly better.

    Below I have attached the revised drawing that shows the set up of the three temporary spreaders that define the shape of the boat while it is being built. I have moved the end spreaders slightly and there is a new middle spreader.

    Best Regards
    Michael Storer.

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  3. #122
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    Ever so slowly creeping toward completion, and keen to get her in the water.

    Now that the clamps have been removed, the gunwhales make the whole thing look like a boat. It's amazing how much of a transformation that makes.

    I've only got to clean up the tops of the gunwhales and decks, then sand the lot, before glassing and coating.

    We'll take her for a spin before varnishing I think... but it looks the goods.

    Cheers,

    P

  4. #123
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    Looks great Peter, maybe this thread will finally finish after all. I received approval last night to build the canoe so I am hoping to get a copy of the plans soon, work out what I need and start saving. (I am on a students budget at the moment ).
    Have a nice day - Cheers

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdug
    I have not yet finished researching cane seats and I will try various seat heights to see what suits me best. I see on the internet that Canadian canoe makers hang the seats from the gunwale and they are quite near to gunwale level in some cases. I wonder if the Eureka gunwales and inwales are strong enough to support the seat with my weight [88ks] sitting on them.
    Doug, I jumped into this discussion quite late but I don't think this is covered. I am assuming that you have familiarized yourself with the physics around centre of bouyancy/centre of gravity etc, but if not, the One Ocean Kayaks website has a great explanation. The Bearbboat Pro software, although meant for designing strip canoes, has some great maths and graphs in it which you can use to measure your bouyancy as well. Bearboat Pro is free off the net. Just search.

    The reason I bring this up is because of your messages about bouyancy. The design of the Eureka, and any triple chined canoe, seems to lend itselfself to less stability than a more flat bottomed canoe for reasons which are obvious in both the software and the above web site.

    Sorry if I'm preaching to the converted here. I have no idea of anyone's experience level with canoe design so I'm saying too much rather than too little.

    I also have some info on how to weave cane seats if you want it.

  6. #125
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    Sorry. Just re-read that. It sounded like a slag on the design of the Eureka. It wasn't. I doubt very much that the Eureka is an "unstable" canoe. I have never built one and am in no position to give a first hand opinion. I merely wanted to point out the difference in stability between designs. If you place the seats as low as possible the centre of gravity goes further down towrd the centre of bouyancy, and it will be more stable.

    To put it in a nutshell. As a canoe tips, the centre of bouyancy moves outward horizontally, normally faster than the centre of gravity. It then starts to move back in toward the centre while the centre of gravity continues to move outwards. When the centre of gravity passes over the centre of bouyancy, that's the tipping point. The lower the centre of gravity, the longer that takes.

    Michael, I hope I described that properly.

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rookie
    Sorry. Just re-read that. It sounded like a slag on the design of the Eureka. It wasn't. I doubt very much that the Eureka is an "unstable" canoe. I have never built one and am in no position to give a first hand opinion. I merely wanted to point out the difference in stability between designs. If you place the seats as low as possible the centre of gravity goes further down towrd the centre of bouyancy, and it will be more stable.

    Michael, I hope I described that properly.
    Looks fine to me Rookie!

    I do all the hydrostatic stuff with even the simplest boats I design - it is so simple nowadays - just press a button - but some background is needed to interpret what is happening.

    But the basic problem with Doug's test paddlings were that the beam had come out a lot less than designed. Midge's boat was much closer, but still too far away for my liking - so it was clear that there was a deficiency in the plan instruction pack.

    Basically the strongest determinant of stability is - wait for it - beam. ie the width of the boat. The hullshape determines the "feel" of that stability.

    Doug's boat was deficient on beam before he pushed the sides out.

    For example a conventional canoe will gain stability as it heels, In a gradual way (as will a 5 panel boat like the Eureka), whereas a square section canoe (with no ballast and little weight in the hull) will have a high level of initial stability but around the 45 degree mark will suddenly lose everything (for a square hull it is symmetrical to the water when it heels to 45.).

    Anyway, the thing to realise is that beam works to the 3rd power in rough stability terms
    ie stability = beam^3 X length. (for the maths experts, read the = as "is proportional to")

    so if you double the size of a boat in all dimensions it will have 16 times the stability.

    Or if you halve it - theres 1/16 the stability - notice how radio control yachts always have REALLY deep and REALLY heavy keels. It is because the small hull has very little stability.

    Doug's beam was at about 88 percent of the design beam which means the worst case scenario is that stability was 0.88^3 = 0.70

    Stability was down 30 percent.

    And that's what he may have got back by pushing the sides out.

    It is a bit more complicated than that because increasing the beam by pushing the sides out doesn't change the bottom shape much.

    So my feeling for it is that the initial stability won't be much different - ie the stability when the boat wobbles through about 3 or 4 degrees won't change.

    But as it heels further it will feel much better than before as the wider topsides start meeting the water.

    BUT - the big test is to get it into the water - which is why I am hassling Midge, who I am staying with, to get his Eureka in the water.

    The other factor is that the big Eureka plan has been around for some time and I have only heard good things about it. As a designer, you don't get much feedback if things go OK - just the same as with Social Workers and Doctors.

    But back in the days when the plan required the boat to be built over a strongback and molds (between 1993 and two years ago) there were a fair few plans sold and three people did get back and say they loved the boat. Strongback and molds ENSURES the boat will end up the designed shape - so it does appear that the designed shape works.

    The revised plans for the stitch and glue version have been modified so that the width of the boat will come out very close to the designed beam.

    But, even though there is evidence that the boat works fine I find I am waiting with some nervousness to paddle Pete's boat around. I make lots of effort to make sure my boats work well and the plans take good care of first time builder and want everyone to really like them too.

    There is no great financial reward from designing boats - but I know the difference between the standard things that most people use and a boat that really fits its purpose. Paddling boats that REALLY paddle, Sailing boats that REALLY sail etc. That's the payoff for me - that people become educated to know what a good boat is really like and can experience the pleasure as the beastie does what it is supposed to with very little fuss.

    Which is why, like Daddles, my favourite Australian Designers are David Payne and Ian Oughtred (he lives in Scotland, but he was entirely educated about boats living in Australia - his boats LOOK like traditional forms, but everything about them, their lightness simplicity and speed is pure Australian - the Brits and Yanks just don't get it the same way). They just don't put a foot wrong. Or hardly ever.

    By the way, David Payne has just won the Classic Boat Magazine International Design Competition for a RAID boat.

    Anyway I have some Paddle Ducks to cook and we are still kidding ourselves that we will get them into the water on Sunday. Maybe we will.

    Best Regards
    Michael Storer

  8. #127
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    Thumbs up

    Midge, that is just fantastic mate. If we didn't give each other a greenie while mucking around, I could have given you one here for some genuine woodwork.

    g
    Visit my website at www.myFineWoodWork.com

  9. #128
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    I would like to congratulate you once again in my 1888th post

    You should find yourself a dragon head and stick it in the front of the boat.
    Visit my website at www.myFineWoodWork.com

  10. #129
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    Wongo, Thanks for the green square and the wishes... today, we moved the boat so many times that I masked it up and bogged the seams ready to sand and glass tomorrow!

    It'll get in the way of Puddleduck building, and will give me THREE boats to varnish in a week or so... but a man's got to do what a man's got to do!

    Cheers,

    P

  11. #130
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    OK, so I've been a bit distracted for a few weeks!

    Finally glassed the little thing, and even though the tops aren't done yet, we'll take it for a paddle tomorrow just because we can!

    Pics:
    1) The bottom of this boat is fully glassed, to add a bit of stiffness to the 4mm ply. I had cleared this with Michael Storer before ordering the timber, rather than building in 6mm (that was a recap for those that haven't read all the way through this thread!)

    Here the glass is laid on the hull, and taped to hold it more or less in position. Under the glass, just visible in the shot is a line of masking tape, which is used to mark the edge of the glass, and I'll trim to it later to get a neat finish.

    2) The goose in the background is carrying on as though he's the only one that's ever stuck glass on to the bottom of a boat....to be fair, this one HAS been going on a bit.......err... long?

    3) Trimming the glass. At this point the epoxy has gone rubbery, and it's pretty easy to trim with a SHARP blade. I'm using a razor, but a stanley knife with a new blade will do just as well. I rather like very sharp, very fine blades as they do not leave a discernable mark on the veneer.

    After this, the masking tape can be removed, and the rest of the boat coated.

    4) The first coat is on, so are the glass tapes to the chines and stems. A few more coats and the glass is almost invisible, and ready for all that sanding again!

    Don't get excited... after the paddle tomorrow, I'll keep the Puddleducks in the urgent basket, so it may be a few weeks till the canoe is finally finished!

    cheers,

    P

  12. #131
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    Default Stability And The Eureka

    Well we couldn't help ourselves.... the outside and most of the important bits are waterproof, so I stuck the seats in with double sided tape, and we plonked the Eureka in the water this afternoon.

    FANTASTIC!

    In response to Doug's question above re: stability - we are pleased to report that there are no problems whatsoever with our boat.

    We tried a number of combinations of weight and expertise, including by beloved who is at the pre-novice stage of her canoe career. (This is the first time in 32 years as far as I can recall). It's been a few years since I've been on my surfski as well, but as they say, it's just like riding a bike!

    Our first impressions are that the boat is lively (in a positive way) and very responsive, and a compliment to it's designer. I completely endorse Michael's comments above, even if I don't understand most of them!

    I was a bit conservative in placing our seats quite low in the boat, and I am now considering raising them by 50mm or so before completing it (they are stuck in with double sided tape at the moment).

    For the statistically minded the boat weighs 18kg (39lb), which is pretty pleasing, and we are happy as...... in fact I now have pressure being put on me to finish it properly so we can go for our early morning paddles.. :eek: :eek:

    It's not going to get "properly launched" till it's good and finished though, so there's lots of sanding and varnishing to do in the meantime, at least a couple of weeks work!

    Pics: 1&2 Michael and JJ having going for a burn among the mangroves.

    Pic 3: I've got the hang of all this really quickly, and I don't intend installing rear view mirrors!

    Really big cheers!!

    P (This thread ain't dead yet!)

  13. #132
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    Oh my god it finally got wet!!!!!

    About bloody time Midge!

    Look forward to seeing the rest of the finishing and maybe one day the finished canoe.
    Have a nice day - Cheers

  14. #133
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    Trouble is Rowan, at 6 months per coat of varnish, and about seven coats, and that's AFTER he's finished building it ... and not to mention forgetting how many coats are on it and doing a couple of extra

    Richard

  15. #134
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    Default Second sea trials

    Hi,

    I also had my Eureka in the water late last evening [Sunday February 26}.

    It was a fairly windy day at West Beach and I had the same nervous and inexperienced crew that I tipped out on the first voyage so it was hard to get a real feel for the boat. I was sitting on the remains of the seats that I cut out of the boat which put my bum about 50mm above the bottom.

    It all seemed fine. I am very used to paddling a covered canadian fibreglass canoe so I was looking for comparisons. I did not feel as if I was going over at any time.

    The windy conditions really made any serious test impossible and I did not push my luck by trying to lean the boat over.

    I went out on my own but found that I could not counter the wind with so little of the boat in the water.

    I went beam on in the very gentle break line and still stayed the right way up so I must pronounce the test as successful.

    I have left the boat on the trailer in the hope that I will get a really calm day to try a few things out.

    I feel a whole lot better about it now.

    I am interested in the cane seats still so if the kind person who offered some information on that will pass it on I will be grateful.

    Doug

  16. #135
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    Hi Doug,

    I was just logging in to say what Midge's efforts mean for your boat - that it would probably be fine when you do put it in the water.

    And you had beat me to it!

    Glad the boat is behaving properly now

    Michael

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