Thread: GIS sail tweaking

Okay, back to topic.

I just returned from a local sailmaker. I brought in my sail to see about fixing the things which bother me most:

1) The tape and rope along the luff is cut at the batten pockets. All the tension on the luff is held by a single layer of sailcloth at those points. The stitching around it is already coming loose. I want tape (and probably rope) to run unbroken down the luff to take that strain.

2) I want two new reef points at heights that have been discussed many times before.

3) I want the batten pockets stitched so that, if I do choose to use the battens, they won't work out the leach end.

Rough estimate for all that is about US$300. Rough estimate to have a brand new sail made to specs posted in these forums is about US$750.

(No, I can't get a kit -- or buy pre-cut sail cloth -- and make my own. Not right now. Political reality dictates that I need to spend a bit less time "making a boat" and a bit more time "sailing the boat" for a while. One must take into account the wishes of long-suffering and, up until now, quite patient spouses in this sort of endeavor.)

My head says that I should alter the existing sail now and build a better sail when this one wears out. But my heart disagrees. Advice?

Also, is the rope down the luff really necessary? If it would save me money to just run a couple of layers of tape down the luff, would that be adequate? (I didn't ask how much more it costs for the rope. Most of the labor is probably in working the new tape around grommets and batten pockets and such. But it might be worth asking if just tape will be strong enough.)

Howdy Paulie,

The two layers of cloth would be absolutely fine.

I would just get them to do a very basic patchup and just wait ... maybe one extra reef in the upper position where you want it and forget about the rest.

$300 sounds like overcapitalising an old sail. I would be tempted to do the minimum required.

I wrote this article some time ago about the risks of perfectionism. It is important to analyse what you really need rather than what is ideal.

Q&A How to Race a Dinghy Successfully - Michael Storer Boat Design

Best wishes
Michael

Paulie,

I read your post earlier but didn't have time to respond...

My thoughts agreed with Mik's - $300 sounds a bit much.

Rope in the luff is not necessary. If fact, when I was about to order my kit from SailRite, someone suggested I add a rope to luff to beef it up for the high loads the luff takes. I ran that idea by the usual suspects here and the unanimous response was, "No need for rope in the luff." (or words to that effect) When I ordered the kit I asked Jeff (sailmaker at SailRite) about it (hey, I am not easily swayed...). His response was, "The sail is designed without a rope in the luff because it doesn't need it." If I remember correctly, my sail has 5 layers at the luff: the sail panels, a narrow tape folded over the edge of the panels and a wider tape folded over that.

Go with minimum work on this sail and save up for the sail you want.

One question though - just how many spouses do you have to take into account?

Have a beer. Go sailing (in the spring)!

Thanks guys. I'd kind of settled on going for the quick fix now, but it's good to have backup on that. Sails don't last forever. I'll get the sail I want sooner or later.

I will ask how much it will save to just have tape, and no rope, on the luff. It might not actually save much. Almost all the cost is in the labor and most of that will probably be in dealing with the existing tape and grommets and the ends of the batten pockets, etc. Putting in just one more set of reef points, rather than two, may make for bigger savings.

I'll work that out with the sailmaker in the next couple of days.

Thanks again for the advice.

No wuz!

Yup, I agree about the tape along the luff. My original thoughts were along the lines of some dyneema in the luff, but my sail maker said that would make for more problems and that some stretch is required.

I disagree about spending money on adding another reef point. This is what is contributing to much of the cost. Just put up with what you have, and better still, don't reef the sail as it just makes you go slow

I went back and looked at video I had of my DW sail, concentrating on the luff. One thing I noticed was that when I had the foot lashed, the luff had a funny curl to it, but unlashed with all tension created solely by the outhaul and downhaul, the luff looked not bad at all.

Mik's perfection comment is spot on for me - I need to get out and sail for the freedom of sailing, and worry about the equip. less .... though I have been wondering about a swiveling mast base and a boom that swivels with the mast .... )

Howdy,

Remember too that normally the front sail on any rig has some depth in the foot.

The boat will go upwind considerably better ... particularly in choppy conditions with depth in the foot of the sail. Maybe up to 1:10 in the bottom third.

Michael

My foot is sooo flat, it begs for bunions .... and maybe a bit of arch support too.

Heading out for a sail - praying for more wind!

Back. Beautiful out - 70 fahrenheit, great swell, but not much wind - 7 knots max (if that). I worked on trimming the sail on both tacks. For my sail, you definitely have to be careful not to oversheet when pointing with the sail on the leeward side of the mast. On the way back in, fairly straight downwind for a few miles, I worked on sailing by the lee. I tried to see how far ahead of the mast I could get the leech. This may sound weird, but I could get the sail to draw cleaner when sailing by the lee, than with it jibed the other way. Fun!

I like this webpage about "sailing by the lee":
http://www.roostersailing.com/articles/4TH%20DIM%20WEB%20ARTICLE.HTML

Originally Posted by warm beer

Back. Beautiful out - 70 fahrenheit, great swell, but not much wind - 7 knots max (if that). I worked on trimming the sail on both tacks. For my sail, you definitely have to be careful not to oversheet when pointing with the sail on the leeward side of the mast. On the way back in, fairly straight downwind for a few miles, I worked on sailing by the lee. I tried to see how far ahead of the mast I could get the leech. This may sound weird, but I could get the sail to draw cleaner when sailing by the lee, than with it jibed the other way. Fun!

I like this webpage about "sailing by the lee":
http://www.roostersailing.com/articles/4TH%20DIM%20WEB%20ARTICLE.HTML

Howdy,

The same article was inspiration for this ...
Sailing unstayed Cat Ketches and Cat Yawls safely and efficiently downwind in strong winds#|#Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans



And if you look closely at the pic the gust we are in is coming from just to the left of the camera going direct towards the Goat ... making us look like we are very much by the lee. Which we are!

The awsomeness of sailing this way is if you start heeling to windward you ease the sail and it swings more forward giving a power boost. If you heel to leeward you pull the sail on and you also get a power boost.

Compared with sailing conventionally with the mainsail on the other side ... if you heel to leeward you ease the sail, which gets rid of power and the boat is vulnerable. Also you are never sure how much to ease to get rid of the excessive power or the roll.

By the lee is is much more safe and way faster.

(By the way ... I do think my page and diagrams are a bit more clear. But I will blow my own trumpet sometimes!). But just to balance that a bit ... the video set on the Rooster's page, particularly the astounding last video is just great ... so after all ... maybe you need BOTH of us!

Michael

Originally Posted by warm beer

Back. Beautiful out - 70 fahrenheit, great swell, but not much wind - 7 knots max (if that). I worked on trimming the sail on both tacks. For my sail, you definitely have to be careful not to oversheet when pointing with the sail on the leeward side of the mast. On the way back in, fairly straight downwind for a few miles, I worked on sailing by the lee. I tried to see how far ahead of the mast I could get the leech. This may sound weird, but I could get the sail to draw cleaner when sailing by the lee, than with it jibed the other way. Fun!

I like this webpage about "sailing by the lee":
http://www.roostersailing.com/articles/4TH%20DIM%20WEB%20ARTICLE.HTML

Good for you for trying this! As you've discovered, by the lee is quick and quite stable under certain circumstances. Certainly there is not much to go wrong in 7 kts and you can quite safely extend the boom out a bit more than 90 degrees and have plenty of warning if you go too far. If you also heel the boat to windward while placing your weight forward you will find the helm neutralises a bit more too, so there will be a speed gain as a result of less drag. (centre of effort of the sail is aligned more with the centreline of the boat, aligning it with the centre of lateral resistance)

It's different when the wind gets up over 12 kts, as that is where the GIS can get hairy when by the lee. This is because you do need to take off some vang to give yourself plenty of warning of an impending gybe. The problem with the GIS's big yard is that it can easily get ahead of the mast, and that condition is unstable. So, in 12 kts or more and by the lee, you need to oversheet a fair bit and use a touch more vang than normal. Personally, I prefer to sail the GIS a bit more conservatively than I do the Laser as a capsize in the GIS has much bigger consequences, like a lot of bailing afterwards! By the way, I do advocate a vang for the GIS, but if you don't have one, use some more downhaul in lieu.

One thing I have not tried with the Goat in light conditions is heeling it to windward when going upwind. In Lasers, there is a lot of discussion going on about this mode of sailing and how fast it can be if done correctly. It's highly technical, and for this reason some sailors are saying is doesn't work for them. However, there is plenty of evidence now that this does work in the right conditions. We are talking about lightish conditions, where you have the foils working well and the boat is moving through the water nicely. Probably in the range 5-10 kts of wind. In this mode, you are "gybing" the daggerboard in that the boat's centreline is pointing up higher than the direction of travel. The boat moves faster and "slides" to weather due to increased angle of attack of the board. The rudder has some positive angle when in this mode so the natural weather helm is also eliminated. Try it in the GIS and let us know your thoughts. It will be a while before I can get a chance to see for myself.

Steve Cockerill talks about it here. MIK will also like the bits about fore and aft trim, which is also very important when sailing the Goat, or any other boat for that matter. Boat Trim by Steve Cockerill (Copyright)

Originally Posted by Boatmik

... the video set on the Rooster's page, particularly the astounding last video is just great ... so after all ... maybe you need BOTH of us!
Michael

It's called S-Curving, where you are going down the face of a wave "by the lee" and when you start to run out of power or about to gybe, you curve back the other way along the wave into a broad reaching position, powering up again trying to hold the wave. When you get in sync and can stay on the wave, it's an awesome feeling. In a bit more wind than these videos show, instead of turning back along the same wave, you leapfrog the wave, and then go back down the face at an angle, trying not to dig the bow in to wave in front. Generally you like to time the leapfrogging with a gust or when you feel the sail power up. When you sense the power, you sheet in a foot or two, jump back (to keep the bow up) and power over the wave. Then you turn back and repeat. Sometimes when you are planing really fast, it's possible to get airborne as you crest the wave in a powered up mode. If you get in sync with the waves, there is NO better feeling in sailing! Of course, this is edgy stuff, so the adrenaline is really pumping too and I think that's why it feels so good.

Attachment 198520

Originally Posted by warm beer

...This may sound weird, but I could get the sail to draw cleaner when sailing by the lee, than with it jibed the other way....

It doesn't sound weird at all. When sailing downwind with the sail to leeward, the hull and it's contents (esp. people sitting more or less upright) cause all kinds of eddies and swirls in the airflow near the foot. The effect, while still there, is surely lessened with the sail to windward. The difference is probably not noticeable in a stronger breeze.