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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by surlyone View Post
    My reading of the plans is that framing of the front face (finishing flush with the side of the curved plywood then bevelled) should be attached now and the longer arms for the rear face are attached later. Does this sound right? If so then I think I can still recover from this by making the framing for sides the correct curved shape and also making a small adjustment for the bevel of these two side frames.

    Am I on the right track?
    You've got it. As long as you've got the bulkhead's width at the top and the bottom correct, you'll be able to get the hull sides to wrap around fine. I deviated a little from the instructions when it came to gluing the bulkheads. I did the dry fit, then I unscrewed and glued the following one at a time in this order: Stem, BH3, Transom, let cure. Then: BH1, BH4, and BH2. If you do this, your hull sides will retain their shape even without BH2 in place and you'll be able to fill whatever gap you end up with with your thickened epoxy.

    I also found the the side arms needed much more shaping than the curve described in the plans, both in curvature and in beveling. MIK spec'd a size of lumber for those that allows for plenty of shaping (wider than all the rest of the framing in case you didn't pick up on that). I only say that so you know not to stress too hard on the curve shape of the arms in advance; cut the curve, but don't break out the micrometer...
    Dave
    StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
    Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread

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  3. #77
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    YES ... as long as all bulkheads are in place when any glue is setting it will all fit together at the end.

    The risk is that if the bulkhead is left out while others or the stem is gluing then weird things will happen when parts are fitted together later.

    But most (all) Goats turn out spectacularly fair (smooth curves everywhere) built according to the plan principles.

    MIK

  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by davlafont View Post
    I think you'll be ok, but you'll certainly want to remember about it. Here's why:

    If I'm not mistaken, the actual curvature is more a function of how the plywood twists. So the curve you omitted would have been an approximation only. MIK has often noted that epoxy can accommodate gaps as large as 4mm, so you should be within the margins of tolerance. The key will be to make sure you let the plywood sides take their own shape as you secure BH2 for gluing. Using screws to hold is the recommended technique; you'll just have to be sure to screw only at the corners of BH2 and not within the flat sections. Later, the frame arms will go in and have to be shaped to fit anyway. At that point, you'll be covering the error and you'll be right as rain.

    Hope that makes sense. If not, I can throw more words at it.
    Dave, The goats are about to get their first saint.

    You have reallly been great at helping people here and on the facebook group ... really appreciate it. And this is a super answer!

    MIK

  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by surlyone View Post
    Thank you for raising these very good points that I should have checked on before purchasing. I sort of made the assumption that the sail would mostly conform to the one in MIKs plans.
    1. I do know that duckworks no longer include battens on their GIS sails (unless requested at extra cost) - that is clearly stated on the web page. I haven't requested battens.
    2. I requested three rows of reefing points. I had assumed that these would be evenly distributed along the luff of the sail which would put the bottom row around 300mm, or perhaps more, lower than the bottom reefing point in MIK's plan. I've noted the trend towards a lower first reefing point so I'll have to confirm this.
    3. Didn't realise this is an option - I'll have to ask.
    4. Again I assumed it would be as per the plans and have a laced foot - I'll have to confirm.

    Cheers

    Matt
    Loose foot OR laced foot are quite good.

    MIK

  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by surlyone View Post
    My reading of the plans is that framing of the front face (finishing flush with the side of the curved plywood then bevelled) should be attached now and the longer arms for the rear face are attached later. Does this sound right? If so then I think I can still recover from this by making the framing for sides the correct curved shape and also making a small adjustment for the bevel of these two side frames.

    Am I on the right track? Is this adjustment going to be to complicated to worry about?
    OK .. specific Answer.

    The nice thing is that whatever you do to fix it will be hidden when the side arms are finally fitted after the boat is assembled.

    But to fix the problem in the building procedure ...

    It is possible to assemble the bulkhead carfully at the gluing stage. Clearly the places to have the temporary fastenings are on the top and bottom of the bulkhead edge. If you put a fastening in the middle you will force a hollow to be there.

    The same would happen if you overtighten the top and bottom fastenings. So when you assemble that bit check the outside of the hull doesn't have unfairness or dimples under the fastener heads.

    If the bevel hasn't been planed yet you can make the adjustment there too - use a bevel gauge and move it out the 4mm or whatever you need to add. You can put a 4mm mark on the sliding bevel body. Or cut a piece of ply offcut with the right angle.

    Another neat trick I have used in building situations to bridge bigger gaps reliably is to actually put several small gauge stainless screws at the measurement points. In one duckflat class boat the builders ended up with bulkhead 2 about 6mm out of alignment so it was short of the bottom panel line. I just grabbed four or five 8 gauge countersunk screws, put them equidistant (avoiding limber holes) and then adjusted them in and out until the heads were at the right height to support the bottom. They will be hidden in the join permanently

    Also used masking tape to prevent the ooze (peanut butter thickness epoxy) from going where it wasn't wanted - as there is a bit more ooze and fiddling than normal.

    The Bote Cote filler is very close to the gaboon colour, but you can pull the same trick off by adding wood flour to your glue mix (usually it makes it too dark) so then you add the normal high strength powder to bring the colour back to where you want. Being several colour shades out will barely be noticeable because it is a shadow line anyhow.

    The important thing was to check the panel was fair by not overtightening the temporary fasteners when the panel goes over such an "adjusted joint".

    You might ask why we didn't stop the mistake as teachers. Well ... it is interesting in a class ... everyone is hyper worried about screwing up for the first day. But when someone makes the first mistake we gather the group round and say ... this is a mistake because of ... reason. But it is not critical because we can can do .. this.

    Once there have been two or three mistakes (which are always hugely amplified in the students' minds) and recovered publicly, the pace of the work picks up, everyone starts enjoying themselves ... mistakes or not.

    But if we see a critical mistake being made ... that is another story ... but they are relatively uncommon.

    MIK

  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Dave, The goats are about to get their first saint.

    You have reallly been great at helping people here and on the facebook group ... really appreciate it. And this is a super answer!

    MIK


    Just returning the favor granted by those who helped me...
    Dave
    StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
    Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread

  8. #82
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    Jul 2012
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    Santa Cruz La Laguna
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    I have a question about fillers. I ended up with the following:
    #
    ½ lb colloidal silica (I ordered 1 lb but just realised half went missing in transit...bugger)
    1 lb Wood flour
    ½ lb blended flour (microballons + silica)
    #
    Seeing as not all of what I ordered arrived I’m a bit concerned that I will run out of filler before I’m finished.
    #
    So for gluing would a mixture of silica and wood flour added to epoxy work well?
    #
    My understanding is that I could use the blended flour added to epoxy for either filleting or fairing, but I shouldn’t use it for glueing?

  9. #83
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    Jul 2012
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    I finally have my hull timber! A mixture of cedar and mahogany (I hope) - it looks nice though I would have liked there to be a bigger colour contrast between the two but I had been told there wouldn't be.



    So tomorrow I hope to tackle some scarf joints (for the chinelogs, gunwales etc etc) any tips? I assume from the section in the plans on the hollow mast that a 6:1 joint is the way to go?

  10. #84
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    Sep 2007
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    Savannah GA USA
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    Collect your sanding dust (from a belt sander and/or a random orbital sander) and use it for filler. I bought a small bag but never bothered to buy more because there was plenty of wood dust available from sanding operations.

    Even when using silica and/or chopped fibers I added wood dust for color. It thickens better (quicker, with less) than the high tech fillers, too.
    The "Cosmos Mariner,"My Goat Island Skiff
    http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/MiddleAgesMan/

    Starting the Simmons Sea Skiff 18
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/37973275@N03/

  11. #85
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    My reference for construction tech (PAR - Paul Ricelli) said that silica is hard to use by itself - it tends to be lumpy and a bit difficult to mix and spread out.

    He recommended using it with wood flour. Silica and a very fine wood flour makes a much smoother and easier to blend mix.

    I also feel good about this as pure wood flour is often too dark by itself ... and I am a bit nervous about what different people think is wood flour. I am sure most here know well - but sometimes I have seen people use something closer to sawdust. It should be like flour in appearance.

    Having the silica in there as well with the different grade "flours" people use makes this designer relax substantially!

    MIK

  12. #86
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    I've used both silica and milled fibers (tiny pieces of fiberglass) and prefer the fibers. They mix more reliably than silica. But I always used wood flour with it, too, for the color and to speed the thickening.
    The "Cosmos Mariner,"My Goat Island Skiff
    http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/MiddleAgesMan/

    Starting the Simmons Sea Skiff 18
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/37973275@N03/

  13. #87
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    I've never mixed wood flour in with silica to thicken epoxy - not because of any particular aversion to the idea, more along the lines of it not occurring to me. Maybe it is the small batches of thickened epoxy I use, but I have never found it difficult to obtain a smooth consistency using only silica to thicken the epoxy. Certainly adding too much silica results in a stiff paste-like substance that is pretty much impossible to work with - but that can easily be avoided.

    Sometimes, I just don't know what I don't know...

    I'll have to experiment with wood flour and epoxy.
    Building Gardens of Fenwick, a Welsford Parthfinder
    Gardens of Fenwick
    Karen Ann, a Storer GIS
    Goat Island Skiff - Sacramento

  14. #88
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    Apr 2008
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    Connecticut, USA
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    Neither did I. Duckworks sent me silica so that's what I used. No one ever told me otherwise. Seems to have worked out okay.

  15. #89
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    I have only just started gluing a few pieces together and mainly because of what I have I have been using two parts wood flour to one part silica. The wood flour is mush easier to mix in then the silica.

    I have started collecting "wood flour" from my random orbital sander - the dust is not quite as fine or "fluffy" as the bought stuff but it's not to far off - thanks for the suggestion MiddleAgesMan.

  16. #90
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    I could never get the consistency required for filleting work without wood flour. I always started with either silica or milled fibers and added some, stirred, added more, stirred, then added more. The stuff isn't cheap and it seemed it was going to take way too much to ever get the right consistency. That's when I first resorted to a little wood flour--voila! The right consistency with just a few pinches. These were small batches, of course. The ratio--by volume--was probably 3 parts silica or milled fibers to one part wood flour so my sanding dust would go a long way all while reducing the expense of having to buy more and more of the other stuff. That ratio was just about perfect as far as the color--not white and not dark.

    My random orbital sander doesn't have a collection bag so I was using the stuff collected from my belt sander. The stuff was not as fine as the purchased wood flour but it worked just fine. It wasn't anything like what you would get by adding saw dust, something I would never recommend.

    The stuff you collect from your random orbital sander will be even better than what I used.
    The "Cosmos Mariner,"My Goat Island Skiff
    http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/MiddleAgesMan/

    Starting the Simmons Sea Skiff 18
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/37973275@N03/

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