Thread: Goat Island Skiff - side seats?

Howdy Theodor,

The beauty about the Goat is that it is quite light for its weight. The more bits you add the more it will weigh - that is one of the downsides - the boat will be harder to move around on shore etc.

Comets and lasers get away with it by keeping the boat nice and low to the water - you can sit on the side decks and still lean out to keep the boat upright.

With the goat - if the seats are lower than the sides you won't be able to get your weight where it is needed to hold the boat up as the seats will get in the way of your legs.

If the boat is built with side decks your feet will never reach the bottom of the boat if your thighs are on the side decks. The Goat is deceptively high sided - maybe 2 1/2 times the depth of a laser cockpit. The high sides are disguised by the curve of the sheerline.

When cruising with a few people aboard we have done this in the past to get everyone seated.

Two people on the mid seat. The person steering sits on an esky (portable ice box for those from other countries) in the back section - it is moved from side to side. The fourth person (the lightest) sits on a swimming pool type bean bag on the floor either in front of the centrecase or to one side of it.

With this many people aboard the stability becomes much more yachtlike with slow and graceful tacks and lots of momentum. Still sails nicely like that too - the first time I sailed a goat was like this - sailing around Moreton bay with Biting_Midge and our two partners. How much weight in the boat Midge?

I have to work in pounds and then work back ... maybe 630 in bodies um 286kg. And the boat still covers ground nicely.

(sorry to those who have seen that story before)

Anyway, here is a pic of me sailing the GIS and holding it upright from the side - the gunwale is quite wide - never a whinge from my bum from sitting on the side - unlike some other boats I have sailed.



Can you see how my short little pegs (legs) are reaching the bottom of the boat OK in this pose. Now imagine my thighs are horizontal.

MIK

Hmm .. now that you've pointed it out, I hadn't noticed the height of the sides before. Its always the problem these days - look at something on the internet and you never really get a perspective as good as having something in your hands.

I think I will really have to search for that boat design I saw with the seats along the side which I figured was similar to GIS. It may prove to be vastly different in purpose and build.

I will certainly be attending more boat shows in the coming years!

Originally Posted by Boatmik

HI have to work in pounds and then work back ... maybe 630 in bodies um 286kg. And the boat still covers ground nicely.

Might have been a bit more than that Mik. I accounted for 90 of 'em in those days. Maybe the others were svelter than I remember, but Mrs Midge is a good 12kg lighter now too!

Theodor,

One of the first changes I wanted to make to the boat after launching was to install side tanks, this was to cut down on the volume of water the boat holds as much as anything, because as Mik says the gunwhales are really quite comfortable, and seem to be at a perfect angle so that they don't "dig in", if you've poked around our sites you will have seen some photos of the boat carrying passengers on the forward seat, or on the floor with the forward bulkhead as a backrest (which is my wife's favourite spot).

In all conditions I've met, you don't need any more than two people to be movable including the skipper. Often only the skipper needs to shift his weight.

At the heart of your question: our boat is 6mm ply and we've trusted the epoxy for nearly 15 years so far! There's no sign of deterioration, and certainly no hint of structural failure.

Cheers,

P

I really hate it when you write a huge response, then the modem drops out while you're sending it. OK .. here we go again...

I found the design which I have had in the back of my mind for the last few months - check out https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=442. I can guarentee you that I would never purchase a design marked in inches (too much hair pulled out when trying to use American furniture designs). The amount of wood in this boat makes it look extremely heavy too (no idea how much 325 lbs is).

I think what I am looking for is a GIS type wooden sailing boat, which I can also use for fishing or motoring. Having learnt to sail on a comet, I like the idea of getting up some speed and hanging off the side. Yet I would also like to take my wife and children (1.5 kids under 2 years old) for a gentle sail around a lake. I like the look of the Glen-L design in that there is some protected area up the front (i.e. storage, dry space) and even having a jib would bring some challenge to sailing it.

So Mik, do you have any designs like this? Could you adapt such a design to the GIS?

Or can I expect to have my desires fulfilled in the current GIS design?

Since I am only new to wooden boat construction, I am unaware of "designer ethics". I trust it doesn't put you on the spot when asked to critique other boat designs.

Originally Posted by Theodor

I really hate it when you write a huge response, then the modem drops out while you're sending it. OK .. here we go again...

I found the design which I have had in the back of my mind for the last few months - check out https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=442. I can guarentee you that I would never purchase a design marked in inches (too much hair pulled out when trying to use American furniture designs). The amount of wood in this boat makes it look extremely heavy too (no idea how much 325 lbs is).

I think what I am looking for is a GIS type wooden sailing boat, which I can also use for fishing or motoring. Having learnt to sail on a comet, I like the idea of getting up some speed and hanging off the side.

The design and layout of the glen L is straight out of the 1950s, we have learned a lot since then.

It is built over a strongback (more material cost and time) it weighs in at 2 1/2 times the weight of the GIS - so will cost you more in the same proportion.

There will be no chance of you and your wife moving the boat around on shore at that weight - it will have to go on the trailer to be moved - or anchored rather than just pulled up on the beach.

Finally the biggest criticism is that it won't sail very well - the setup is to take something very similar to an outboard utility hull and give it a basic sailing ability. The worst of both worlds?

It would be disappointing for someone who wants a bit of speed and leaning out.

Yet I would also like to take my wife and children (1.5 kids under 2 years old) for a gentle sail around a lake. I like the look of the Glen-L design in that there is some protected area up the front (i.e. storage, dry space) and even having a jib would bring some challenge to sailing it.

One of the big improvements for sailing boats because of the wooden boat movement is that old style sailing rigs like lugsails and spritsails have been looked at afresh saving a lot of complication and cost compared to conventional dinghy rigs.

Basically adding a jib adds quite a lot of cost (generally adding a jib doubles the cost of the rig on a home built boat compared to a simple unstayed rig) and rigging and derigging time goes from the 5 minutes of the unstayed rigs out to about half an hour.

Years ago when we started being involved in modern wooden boats a local woman built a bolger gypsy which has a similar rig to the PDRacer.

Pebli's friends who sailed more conventional boats laughed at the simplified rig so she challenged them to a race. The special condition was that the race started from when their car engines stopped.

She sailed round the course (about a mile and a half) before any of the other boats hit the water.

So Mik, do you have any designs like this? Could you adapt such a design to the GIS?

Or can I expect to have my desires fulfilled in the current GIS design?

Since I am only new to wooden boat construction, I am unaware of "designer ethics". I trust it doesn't put you on the spot when asked to critique other boat designs.

I am happy to try and describe the advantages and disadvantages when they are so clear as with the GlenL design above - it is so outdated (unless someone wants a utility outboard boat that can sail sorta OK - then it could be one of the few choices around)

With the Goat it might answer your criteria to an extent but there might be something that fits better.

Actually just thought of this one - the designer is Australian (now expat) so knows our tradition of light plywood boats. And it has the seats you are after - and a bit of performance too.
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/brs.htm

Check that the aluminium extrusions for the masts are available here in OZ - email them and tell me what size they are.

MIK

hi all..thought maybe i could help with the side seats..i built a flat bottom skiff and added side seats cause the i liked the idea of park bench type they in no way hinder the performance of this skiff as you can see .maybe the design is more versatile. it has classic lines and looks like it doesnt mind sailing in a bit of rough water open watereither
anyway pics attached.
flick

Welcome to the forum Flick

That's a nice little boat that you have built, what design is it . Looks like the seats were part of the design. Was it easy to build and did you have any trouble adapting the seats to fit....did you have to change much. Not a bad idea if you want to keep your RRRs out of the water that seems to be coming in over the gunwale.
I feel more comfortable sitting on the gunwale in a small boat....of course a bit of padding helps there ....sort of feels a bit girly to be sitting inside.

Originally Posted by flick

hi all..thought maybe i could help with the side seats..i built a flat bottom skiff and added side seats cause the i liked the idea of park bench type they in no way hinder the performance of this skiff as you can see .maybe the design is more versatile. it has classic lines and looks like it doesnt mind sailing in a bit of rough water open watereither
anyway pics attached.
flick

Howdy Flick and welcome. It can be nice sitting on the seats - and very nice for people you take out that are less experienced too.

However as soon as you are sitting inside the boat rather on the gunwale you are losing probably about 10 to 15% of performance. With the Goat downwind you would probably be losing around 30% by sitting inboard because of the different hullshape compared to yours.

No criticism there either - your boat is a good all round sailor.

The other thing is that the Goat is just inside a real break even point with handling a boat on the shore.

If a boat is under 140lbs for the hull then two averagely fit adults can pick it up and carry it on the beach.

The Peter's Goat built of the standard thickness materials but of the lightest species - Gaboon for the ply and Western Red Cedar for the timber inside the hull came out just under 130lbs. Western Red Cedar is too expensive and rare in Australia now, so we are experimenting with Paulownia for the Rowboat he is building now.

Not suitable for gunwales - but should be fine for the bits of wood that hold everything together.

The other flaw about thinking about seats. People imagine with boats with seats like yours that three people can sit along the side - but in light boats (actually boats of almost every size) they sail best with the weight very central.

Flick has the boat in PERFECT trim. It looks like he knows a thing or seventeen about sailing - the boat is perfectly balanced fore and aft - most people tend to sit too far back so they can be near the steering. This depresses the ster

However you are on the very front of the side seat and almost on the front seat. Moving back yourself to allow someone to sit on the side seat in front of you would depress the stern with performance repercussions.

The sensible place for the additional crew member on your boat is on the crossways seat - with you not moving much further back in the boat at all.

So you have seats that you can only ever use the front of.

So those are the reasons I thought through when thinking about side seats - and I did heart ache over it (showing that it was a close decision). But when the GIS came out at such a portable weight (which was a little unexpected) I felt I had made the right decision for the type of boat that it is.

Best wishes
Michael

Originally Posted by Deefa

Welcome to the forum Flick

That's a nice little boat that you have built, what design is it . Looks like the seats were part of the design. Was it easy to build and did you have any trouble adapting the seats to fit....did you have to change much. Not a bad idea if you want to keep your RRRs out of the water that seems to be coming in over the gunwale.
I feel more comfortable sitting on the gunwale in a small boat....of course a bit of padding helps there ....sort of feels a bit girly to be sitting inside.

thanks for your interest deefa to answer your questions it is a skiff designed by a joel white probably seen his name in wb it is a pooduck and the seats were added by myself i also added watertight compartments instead of boayancy either is a must i feel for all small boats that go further than the backyard. and yes i too "sit out" but only in a serious racing situation i tend to sail mainly for the tranquility.
regards flick

hi boatmik i would have thought that having a front, middle and two side seat would have covered all possibilities as to seating although jumping from side to side on top of the esky and folded up between the gunwale and centreboat is an interesting idea.
i have attached a photo showing how much the stern and the lines and therefore performance are affected with a passenger.
regards flick

Howdy Flick,

I don't recommend side seats for the Goat because of weight and materials as I posted above.

But the main criticism is that if more than one person uses them the crew weight will be way too far back in the boat as is the case with many lighter small and medium sized boats.

Seating needs to be around the middle of the boat for sailing so if seats are built in that is where they need to be.

As boats get bigger and heavier in proportion to the crew weight it is not so important.

For rowing and motoring it doesn't matter and the extra bods can use the front tank and rear tank as seats.

By the way I would only recommend carrying an esky and a total of 4 people when the weather is right for a picnic - that example was simply a report of what happened on the day - we had a great time.

Best wishes
Michael