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Thread: Herd o' Goats

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Rochester, NY USA
    Posts
    3

    Default Herd o' Goats

    Hello,

    It's my pleasure to advise a youth group that enjoys camping; especially with canoes. We rent as needed which is cost effective but limits where / when we can go. They are talking about building kayaks. A kayak holds 1 person, is not cheap to build and what happens when someone interested in the group wants to come along to check out the experience. I am advising them to consider larger oar/sailboats that can camp 3-4 youth per boat. Boats stay with group as youth cycle through. Possibly 4-5 boats eventually. Idea would be to build Fall/Winter/Sprint starting with one or two; get used to the boats on tame water under oar and eventually work our way up to camping on relatively tame water. We are located in Rochester NY USA and venture afar to Canada and New England (Maine Island Trail would be great after a few years of experience).

    Boats under strong consideration are the CLC Northeaster Dory, Clint Chase's Deblois Street Dory, Lillistone's Phoenix III. I just bumped into the Goat Island Skiff (GIS) and am getting excited. It shines in some of the areas that are challenging with the others. I am listing our criteria with my opinion on how the GIS stacks up. My very ignorant, uninformed, never having seen much less sailed a GIS. If you can comment on any of these thoughts we'd sure appreciate it.


    Building from plans: not to save money or because Noah is our uncle; just need to fund-as-we-go. So purchase initial plywood, build, fund raise, build, fund raise, build, etc.

    Plans Quality ***
    Easy. Everyone raves about the quality of the plans, and support from designer.

    Referrals ***
    Easy. Many examples online of successful builds and use. A lot of support from current fleet. Approaching cult like status.

    Ease of Build ***
    Looks relatively straightforward. Again, detailed quality plans. I am seeing butt joints (avoids scarf-a-phobia a bit); a box mast; not as much fiberglass work as other designs. And it looks like the pieces are already measured – no spiling or not knowing plank dimensions ahead of time. So with proper licensing we can make a copy or two of a part as we move through that part of the plans. No master carpenters or experienced boat builders on hand but we’ve done a lot of reading (becalmed in the Sargasso Sea of design indecision as we are).

    Length of build ***

    Because of the above comments about parts the 1st boat may take a year but the second could follow the first very quickly. Or maybe not a year if we have task specific work sessions (you two are working on this part while these other two are working on this part).

    Crew **

    I see images of the GIS under Oar with many people. Under oar I think four for crew would work. Under sail maybe 3 youth and gear?

    Stability *

    It’s a performance boat. If you push the limits it will flip. Looks like you may get to those limits real quick sometimes. Use of ballast, reefing, boxing in center seat can help with this. For the youth, this might be offset by performance. Also, stay out of front of boat. Nice flotation too.

    Rowing *

    There are accounts of long passages under oar, but I think the GIS is maybe more a sailboat than rowboat? 60/40 maybe? Also, some of the other designs offer multiple rowing stations – very different designs I understand.

    Seaworthiness **
    I understand this is crew related. But there are waters we will not take canoes into but would be ok taking kayaks. I’d like the sail/oar boat to at least be in-between those somewhere. I would give *** to something like Welford’s Navigator)

    Cost ***

    GIS seems to excel at most boat for buck. I am hoping that with qualify materials but a workboat finish we can keep it under $2000 USB (note: Storer’s Simple Sails helps with this).

    Ease of Sail ***

    The lug rig. Does not get much simpler. Yawl is interesting too. Sails should have reef points. A bit of concern about learning to drive in a Ferrari.

    Thanks

    John


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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    NSW, Australia
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    474

    Default

    Your points seem to be on the money generally. The Goat would definitely be the fastest and easiest to build of those listed, which I gather is a major consideration.

    Re "learning to drive in a Ferrari". Any small sailboat is going to require a crew that knows how to handle it. You can't put kids with no sailing experience in any dinghy and expect them to follow you up and down the coast (or wherever). OTOH, any kids who have the skills to handle a sailing boat should be ok in a Goat, as long as they are teenagers and therefore have a bit of weight and strength to them.

    As an alternative, in case they don't take your advice, have they considered skin on frame kayaks? Very fast, easy and cheap to build. People regularly knock them out for a couple of hundred bucks each. Very tough. No sailing skills required.
    Last edited by Sumbloak; 8th November 2014 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Typo.
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Rochester, NY USA
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sumbloak View Post
    up and down the coast
    That is a great visual - thanks! Instead of a line of "goats" a line of "turtled" boats...

    And thanks for the reply. The Dories are attractive because I could toss some kids in them, and under oar, expect them to follow. Multiple rowing stations, one at the helm, another with compass - cuts down on boredom. And they could work their way up to sailing. Could do 3 in a goat with one at helm, one rowing and one, er, at helm (no on in front).

    Yes, looked at SOF. The winning combination at this age seems to be: "[insert verb here] with friends". Camping, sailing, mowing the lawn - as long as they have their friends it works. The 1:1 kid:boat with kayaks means it would work if you took turns. But if there was an evening paddle,row,sail on a local pond as a casual get together someone is on shore. Not the end of the world.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    NSW, Australia
    Posts
    474

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    I think you need to decide if you want to row or sail. If wanting to sail, Goats would be good. If primarily wanting to row, with sailing as nice but not essential, other boats would be better.
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    NSW, Australia
    Posts
    474

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    TBH if you want a boat that will row well with several kids strewn around, and are not fussed about sailing, and want fast and easy construction at a cost of around 2 grand per unit, you'd probably find one of Clint's Drake kits hard to beat. With everything pre-cut and with a manual, and the designer just down the road a bit, it's certainly worth considering. The other point is that Drake is just totally cool, which is important with kids.
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    767

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    Welcome to cult central John. Be sure to take a beverage before your leave... HA!

    I'm a BSA Scoutmaster myself, so I'm excited about a Venturing Crew that's focused on water sports. In my neck of the woods, (Northern New Jersey) the Crews all seem to be about hiking. That's great... if you like to hike.

    So my first question is, what do the kids want to do? If they are thinking Kayaks, there might be good reason. But I'm also one to "help" my Scouts break out of their comfort zone.

    My next question is, have you discovered Storer's Quick Canoe (QC) as a boat and, more importantly, as a concept? Michael (MIK around here) designed the QC to be low cost, low build difficulty, and more of a cargo hauler than a canoe-ballet artist. The kids could have fun building without too much concern about creating a polished product. They'll last awhile, but new ones could be built after a few seasons and the fun can continue. Or if the Crew's interests wander toward other activities after a few seasons, you won't have a fleet of expensive works of art collecting dust.

    Finally, I'm curious about your Chartered Org's ability to host a fleet of whatevers. I'm lucky that our CO allows us a 10' x 20' shed. Other troops in our council have full-blown travel trailers and dedicated passenger vans (with matching paint and graphics). That's not our style, but... Several canoes and/or kayaks can stack up on racks. The GIS, not so much. It's a bit larger in person than how it photographs. Many of us have been surprised when we've seen one in the flesh for the first time. That said, they travel easily thanks to the same attributes that make them fun sail boats: lightweight, minimalist rigging.

    I wouldn't worry at all about novices learning to sail in the GIS. If they're used to canoes, they'll have the sense of balance that will keep a GIS dry. Plus, they'll "be prepared"* for the inevitable capsize because that's what kids do. I'm sure they'll knock each other over for sport.

    Please do ask more questions and keep us posted. You're a forum member now, you may as well dive in!

    *sorry, couldn't help myself...
    Dave
    StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
    Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread

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