|  |
| Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans For the multitude of wooden boat fans that use, and need info on Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans. Put your questions etc here and they will be answered and dealt with quicker and easier by the man himself and others in the know. |
 | | 
18th Sep 2008, 12:33 PM
|  | Senior Member | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Rockhampton, Australia
Posts: 223
| |  Jib on A PD Racer? Gennikers or "Code 0"
Just wondering, has it been done? is it worth it? can it be done really simply? Will it give any performance increase? will it affect the position of the main?
I just think they look cool, and it gives you one more thing to think about while sailing, or your passanger... |
18th Sep 2008, 07:09 PM
|  | Deeply flawed human being | | Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: 'Delaide, Australia Age: 51
Posts: 5,923
| |
Quote: |
Just wondering, has it been done?
| Yes Depends on you. Quote: |
can it be done really simply?
| No ... the boat is too short so it has to be extended with a bowsprit. Plus you would have to design the new sails, spars, new mast position, bowsprit, more fittings and wires. It would add more rigging and derigging time, more building time, more sailmaking time. Quote: |
Will it give any performance increase?
| Almost certainly not - probably big performance downgrade and very certain manoeuvrability and handling downgrade Quote: |
will it affect the position of the main?
| Yes, the existing rigs balance around the existing mast and centreboard positions. Both will have to be changed. Quote: |
I just think they look cool,
| Can't argue with that. Might even be fun. Quote: |
and it gives you one more thing to think about while sailing, or your passenger
| This may be good ... maybe not!!
MIK |
19th Sep 2008, 03:24 PM
|  | AJ | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Adelaide SA Age: 49
Posts: 1,161
| |
The longer bit was suggestion of spinnaker or gennaker rather than a jib if a person is looking for extra strings to tweak, and more performance.
Question for MIK about the OZ PDR rules subset - Broad-seaming is verboten, but
what about V-darts in the corners , or 'gathering' as per the original polysail designs ?
cheers
AJ
(sorry, sorry, sorry AJ ... just abused my powers by accident and edited your post thinking i had quoted you in my own post. Readers be aware that this post by AJ was longer before I cut into it- MIK)
Last edited by b.o.a.t.; 20th Sep 2008 at 12:30 AM.
Reason: putting back the substance that MIK snipped ;-)
|
19th Sep 2008, 03:52 PM
| | Deeply flawed human being | | Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: 'Delaide, Australia Age: 51
Posts: 5,923
| | 
The dart method would not fit within the OZ PDR rules as it would be considered broadseaming.
Originally I did write it in that one dart would be allowed, but then realised that people could use more complex combinations of dart with edgerounding to move towards standard sailmaking procedures and making it a more complex exercise to balance the two methods to produce the fastest sail.
That dart method used by itself does result in a sail, but a very inferior one as it does not affect the shape of the sail at heights unaffected by the dart. So there is a bit of depth in the bottom and nowhere else and if the mast bends (or the jibstay sags then there is no allowance for that either.
It works a bit better for a four sided sail as there are two darts (creating draft at two different heights) and the sprit or gaff is likely to bend a bit less.
If spar bend or or the jibstay sag is taken into account then you have to cut the luffs (or heads) with the right curve .... so you may as well cut the curve a little bit deeper to create the camber you need at the different heights.
BTW ... I think it is a stunningly clever innovation at the same time, particularly for small sails mounted on relatively stiff spars - a great bit of thinking ... but it does have some technical limitations for boats that use spar bend to depower.
It is possible to make a kinda sorta OK sail with the dart method, but I have seen many more that are pretty bad.
As opposed to the edge shaped OZ sails which universally look pretty good ... the only dud I have seen was when one guy used cotton and the luff stretched to about a foot longer than the mast!!!
I would not have expected that either!!!
Best wishes
Michael |
20th Sep 2008, 12:55 AM
| | AJ | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Adelaide SA Age: 49
Posts: 1,161
| |
I was actually thinking of darts or gathering to shape a spinnaker rather than a sparred sail.
How about cutting off about 200mm short of the top corner of a flat triangle & gathering it to a point with a single eyelet through the multiple layers to
form a rather crude radial-head spinnaker ? Nothing complex at all to breach the spirit of the rool about broad-seaming.  No seams there at all to clash with the rools ! (Hey PAR, I think I'm getting the hang of this rule probing thing !!  )
AJ |
20th Sep 2008, 08:03 AM
|  | Most Valued Member | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Adelaide Age: 54
Posts: 1,749
| |
Quote:
Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.  I was actually thinking of darts or gathering to shape a spinnaker rather than a sparred sail.
How about cutting off about 200mm short of the top corner of a flat triangle & gathering it to a point with a single eyelet through the multiple layers to
form a rather crude radial-head spinnaker ? Nothing complex at all to breach the spirit of the rool about broad-seaming. No seams there at all to clash with the rools ! (Hey PAR, I think I'm getting the hang of this rule probing thing !! )
AJ | AJ are you thinking retractable pole and launching tube as well  |
20th Sep 2008, 11:13 AM
| | Deeply flawed human being | | Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: 'Delaide, Australia Age: 51
Posts: 5,923
| |
Hmmm ... OZ rules don't say anything about spinnakers.
So you would probably have to follow the existing sail rules of no shaped seams and polytarp. Darts would be a shaped seam, and remember that before spinnakers yachts used to hoist squaresails.
Remember that the OZ rules have a frightening amount of retrospectivity available to quash "undesirable" trends that don't fit with the preamble, however sails like you describe don't require any or much modification to the standard PDR setup ... so if banned later they won't lead to the boat becoming useless! And you can still use the sail in any non OZ sanctioned events.
MIK |
20th Sep 2008, 11:45 AM
| | Most Valued Member | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Adelaide Age: 54
Posts: 1,749
| |
How about a gennaker lightest tarp material you can find sew in a luff cord say bout 30sq endless sheet Hmmmmm......say 400mm bow sprit would that give you enough slot? |
20th Sep 2008, 12:12 PM
| | Deeply flawed human being | | Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: 'Delaide, Australia Age: 51
Posts: 5,923
| |
30 sq ft?!?
And you call yourself an Australian!
Double it and add 10!
MIK |
20th Sep 2008, 12:15 PM
| | Most Valued Member | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Adelaide Age: 54
Posts: 1,749
| |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatmik 30 sq ft?!?
And you call yourself an Australian!
Double it and add 10!
MIK | waiting for that, but Mik du rools say no trap
Hmmm...... 70 eh .......spose 2 up with the lug rig I can feel a speed attempt looming |
20th Sep 2008, 12:24 PM
| | Deeply flawed human being | | Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: 'Delaide, Australia Age: 51
Posts: 5,923
| |
Howdy Mike,
Because you haven't sailed one of the wee beesties .. you don't know how hugely stable they are. With the standard sprit in the 25knots at Goolwa last year the boat was not pressed reaching (broad or beam)
Stopping the mast from breaking might be a problem with jibs and spinnakers or extra people!!!
BTW ... the speed records are not an OZ sanctioned event ... so you can do your worst and totally ignore the OZ rules.
MIK |
20th Sep 2008, 01:11 PM
| | AJ | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Adelaide SA Age: 49
Posts: 1,161
| |
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2c1Iw waiting for that, but Mik du rools say no trap
Hmmm...... 70 eh .......spose 2 up with the lug rig I can feel a speed attempt looming | You too huh ?
The lug mast looks strong enough to stand a bit of extra sail.
Reckon it could be done for the princely sum of about $50 all-up.
9kts ??? Bah !! |
20th Sep 2008, 01:20 PM
| | AJ | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Adelaide SA Age: 49
Posts: 1,161
| |
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2c1Iw AJ are you thinking retractable pole and launching tube as well | Have never used any of those new-fangled gizmos.
Was thinking long-ish broomstick with dog clips each end, & a 12' skiff style
#1 spinnaker in an attractive sky-blue... OzPDR screaming along with only
the last 2ft or so touching the water.
AJ |
20th Sep 2008, 01:25 PM
| | Most Valued Member | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Adelaide Age: 54
Posts: 1,749
| |
Quote:
Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. OzPDR screaming along with only
the last 2ft or so touching the water.
AJ | In those imortal words "Yeah Baby"  |
21st Sep 2008, 08:45 AM
| | Most Valued Member | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Adelaide Age: 54
Posts: 1,749
| |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatmik BTW ... the speed records are not an OZ sanctioned event ... so you can do your worst and totally ignore the OZ rules.
MIK | OK they are ignored, I had'nt given mods like this a thought.
Thanks Nick for spuring us on in the true Puddle Duck spirit.
I've got a good bit of oregon that will be just the thing for a bowsprit, yep I reckon a gennicker will be fun, mainsheet in teeth screaming along I can see it now | | |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
| | |
All times are GMT +11. The time now is 07:37 PM.
|
