More Launch Photos GIS Maine USA - Dana's Boat

**Boatmik** · 16th September 2008, 10:34 AM

Good questiuon Clint.

CARRYING
For me the biggest single obvious advantage to a light boat is being able to move it around on shore.

When we moved into the PDRacer class most boats were being built of half inch ply because they were having trouble making the boats hold together with thinner stuff. As a result most PDRacers were around 110 to 120lbs (50-54kg).

So two adults were needed to lug the boat around

By bringing the hull weight down to 60lbs it means that two young kids can carry or drag (if sand or grass) the boat up from the waters edge

I know that two adults can move a Taser OR NS14 (14ft/4.3m) around by themselves and those boats have a hull weight of around 140lbs (65kg) , but their rig is lighter than the Goat.

Move up to a Lightweight Sharpie (hull 19.5ft 170lbs - 5.9m 80kg) and it really takes significant effort from three people to carry the hull around.

Why another 30lbs makes it such a big job for three people, I really don't know, but these are boats I have sailed regularly for years and years so I am really familiar with the effort required.

So that is one side - that by going lighter you get a boat that is easier to use. It is not groovy or sexy but it is a real reason why people don't use their boats when they have the opportunity.

SAILING
Now performance ...

For a design to be successful it needs to be different enough from everything else in the marketplace. It looks great, it is easy to build and it goes like the clappers compared to most boats of the type (whatever that is).

So why does the Goat go almost like a modern raceboat?

It goes that quick because every aspect of the boat has been designed to go quick. The designer has enough experience (humbly!) to know what the main speed producing factors are and specify them closely enough that any person who follows the plans will produce a boat with that type of speed.

The thing about performance is that it is a process of getting all the details right. When this is done everything snaps together and you end up with something sensational and different from everything else - because frankly - most designers don't know enough about this angle. I am not being arrogant here, but the list of people who design wooden boats becomes VERY short if you consider performance. Oughtred, (David) Payne and, surprisingly for some, Bolger all know exactly what they are doing. Everything from foil sizes to spar flexibility to rigging detail are set up to make the boat go really well. (by the way ... Bolger chooses when to go the whole hog but all his boats have some sophisticated speed producing features). For Multihulls ... the Wood's designs.

(there are more designers than this of course ... but these are probably the better known)

What builders don't usually understand is how tightly interrelated and how subtle these speed producing features are. Cut away at one and you end up with something quite different from the original aim.

Everyone has the right to do what they want with the plan ... but usually the originial aim of the designer had a lot to do with why the person chose the boat in the first place. So there is a chance of losing something important in amongst the changes. Or losing some of their synergies.

With a more mediocre boat it probably doesn't matter much.

And this is the source of being helpful, but pushing back toward the original concept when people want foredecks (still waiting for any water to come over the front of a Goat), side decks, side seats, floorboards, skegs, mizzens, swinging centreboards (think what they would do to the cockpit space), thicker bottoms, stayed rigs (there is nowhere to attach the stays that hold up the mast on the Goat), swinging rudders (usually with lead ballast).

I can take each of these apart and show how they are either impossible or reduce the function or just simply cannot be used or don't work in the way the person thinks they can - like foredecks or to see what a swinging centreboard would do to the cockpit space or the side seats do for the weight and the centre of gravity of the crew.

Which brings us to ...

CULTURE
This is really interesting one for me.

One of Jason's photos from the other thread.

www.flickr.com

Notice something interesting?

If there were floorboards in this boat, they would not be being used.

The following is not to be critical but to really point out something interesting...

When I drew up the GIS I never guessed that people would want to sit on the cockpit floor. I have come to realise that it is an extremely common thing in the USA and somewhat common in Canada. But it is very uncommon in Australia or the UK or in most other countries.

So the standard seating is setup in the right place that one, two or three people can find somewhere to sit in all wind conditions without putting their bottoms on the floor of the boat and its residual water.

Culture is often a very absolute thing and can change the way something is used in a profound way. I never realised this

The photo above of Jason looking very comfortable is interesting because even though he is in America he is sitting on the side of the boat.

Do you remember he has been sailing only one or two times at a camp. And the guy he was sailing with ... was Australian.

So we can look at Jasons pic and say that while he is "genetically" American his sailing is "culturally" Australian because he sits on the side of the boat.

He is a new sailor and note all the nice comments from the racing sailors who are saying that everything looks really nice including his use of the tiller extension. Remember he is a "newbie" with only a few hours of sailing under his belt.

Interesting, eh?

The other thing .. is that a lot of floor sitters like to be near the back end of the boat. The best place to keep dry and to have a good view is around the mid seat. Around the middle seat is also a good way to get the best performance and also helps to keep water out of the boat.

Best wishes
Michael

**BobWes** · 16th September 2008, 12:04 PM

Mik,

Those are some very good observations. I would suggest one more factor influencing how a boat is sailed: "environmental." A boat's design certainly impacts how it is sailed. A good example is the Thistle. There really is no place but that narrow (2"?) rail for skipper and crew to be when sailing - don't ask me how I know.

My oldest (20 yo) son made an interesting comment when I first showed him the GIS. He said it reminds him of the Thistle, not so much that it "looks" like a Thistle, but that the GIS gave him an "impression" of a Thistle.

Bob

**Boatmik** · 16th September 2008, 03:19 PM

The Thistle is a GREAT boat. Don't mind a comparison with that at all!!! (a bit heavy, but the STYLE!)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2397782...7603948823550/

Always wanted to sail one of them. (and a 110 and a DN and a Windmill and one of the big lake scows and one of the smaller lake scows and a Catboat (take some sandwiches on that one) and and and).

That is the interesting thing about desire! It has a million interesting connections to the world!

MIK

**BobWes** · 16th September 2008, 03:21 PM

I plan to build my GIS to Mik's plan and build it as light as I can (without trying to build it ultra-light). I have no idea how large everyone else is, but I'm at 240 and my son is at 220. Seems to me my GIS will be burdened with just us, so I don't want any extra weight in the construction.

After spending a day pondering colors, I think a bright yellow hull would show off the clear coat interior very nicely. I also think a bright Kelly or Shamrock green would do the same thing. But since I am months away from that decision, I reserve the right to change my mind at any time for any reason.

Bob

**Tomahawk J** · 16th September 2008, 11:21 PM

That's why I chose the GIS!

It was a more throughly thought out design than any of the others I looked at, and so eloquently defended by her designer on every point, and at every opportunity. MIK's constant and enthusiastic involvement on the forums was a big selling point.

As for sitting on the rail, that's what the instructions called for, and second I had to for balance in Saturday's wind. I must note here that when the wind was not so shifty my two lovely passengers often sat on the floor of the forward cockpit with their backs against the center thwart. This seemed more comfortable and eliminated the need for ducking every time we tacked. When the wind picked up they moved to the seat to be in a better position to shift to the gunwale for balance.

Regards,
Jason

**CCBB** · 17th September 2008, 10:31 AM

Well this continues to be a more enjoyable forum than most...I like everyone viewpoints. And I do appreciate Michael's thoughts, and I am glad he is open to things, since I am going to do one of the things he cited as variation in the original concept.

As a budding designer myself, I am realizing more and more that boats should really fit the user and the environment in which they are used and it is good to recall that the GIS does this well. But certain uses will vary slightly enough to demand something different in the design -- not enough to have to go looking for a another design entirely or to redisign -- but rather to tweak. Here in Maine many of our amazing designers that have inspired me have done just this: Joel White took Herreshoff designs and fattened them and added centerboards (the Haven and Flatfish) to make them better for a different sailing environment and demand from users. Who would be brave enough to modify a Herreshoff design!? Well, he truly redesigned the boat, that is redrew the lines and redid the design completely. To me tweaking a design to best fit a person's way of using the boat and their place of use does not require a redesign. So in my case it is adding a mizzen to fitmy style of use and make the boat more amenable to sailing the fickle conditions of Maine in the summer. Dana, wanted floorboards....a difference. Both our tweaks will add some weight, but it is a trade-off. Some would say we should be looking at different designs. I disagree; a design can be flexible with the right attitude and within certain limits. The GIS seems like a great platform for other ideas -- perhaps the Raid boat is one of those...

Clint

**DALukens** · 17th September 2008, 01:36 PM

Well, I must say that I didn't think the floorboards would cause such debate.

Mik, I certainly hope I haven't offended your sensibilities. Since I will probably leave it on a mooring next Summer, I may add a battery and small bilge pump under the mid-seat as well. I think its better to suffer a bit of weight there than face the risk of a swamped boat.

The good news is that I am likely to be -- most of the time -- the only person sailing the boat. And I weigh about 180 pounds. The floorboards maybe 15 pounds, if that. I won't be racing my GIS either.

With all that in mind, I hope you can maybe give the floorboards a "not unacceptable" rating?!

p.s. Yes, Joost, they are removable -- for all you speed jockeys out there!

**Boatmik** · 17th September 2008, 04:03 PM

Hey Dana ....

Not a big thing at all ... I function to make the discussion complete from the design perspective.

Because it is about the philosophy of changes really.

In a way I provide pressure to keep things as much in line with the original boat as possible. But I know that every boat will diverge a bit too.

For example with Clint's mizzen ... we work together to make the maximum benefit with minimum detriment.

We can always discuss the floorboards in the same way. For example you may only need them in a small part of the bottom or there may be another alternative that neither of us have thought of yet that fits with the original function better.

So if you want to talk floorboards a bit then we can do by email or here ... or if you are happy to go your own way ... then do.

Not a big problem to me.

Michael

**CCBB** · 5th October 2008, 04:14 AM

Dana, how is your sail rig going? Or is the economic chaos got you too busy?

Best,
Clint

**DALukens** · 5th October 2008, 11:10 AM

Clint:

Have not made much progress on spars, and slow progress on foils. Worked on trailer today and boat is all ready for rowing etc. Give me a call or send me an e-mail and we can arrange a day/time for you to take it out.

If you and your crew are building spars I might like to commission some -- even if its January. I won't get anything like that done before the sailing season closes anyway....

Dana

**CCBB** · 5th October 2008, 11:50 AM

Dana, I'll be planning some projects with students for the Winter-Spring. If that does not work out I will likely build my GIS this winter and can help out with spars. I will probably do B'mouth for the spars and either B'mouth or rectangular for the mast. I'd love to get a group building a GIS, but we'll see.

I'd love to get out in the next couple weeks. Lets do it soon.

Cheers,
Clint

**DALukens** · 1st November 2008, 06:02 AM

All:

Here are the pictures I took today of Clint rowing the GIS I built -- plus one of Casco Bay (where we both live).

Dana

**jboats** · 1st November 2008, 06:53 AM

Looks like a great day! She looks fantastic!

Cheers,
Jamie

**Boatmik** · 1st November 2008, 08:59 AM

One of those clear sharp Autumn days!!! The photo in the middle makes me think that it would be a wonderful day for a two person sail. Cold weather, rugged up, gentle breeze.

Even I would be happy sitting down inside the boat (as close to the mid seat as I could get of course) rather than perched on the gunwale!

MIK

**arbordg** · 1st November 2008, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Even I would be happy sitting down inside the boat (as close to the mid seat as I could get of course) rather than perched on the gunwale!

MIK

OK Buddy! Who are you, and what have you done with the real Mik???

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