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Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans For the multitude of wooden boat fans that use, and need info on Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans. Put your questions etc here and they will be answered and dealt with quicker and easier by the man himself and others in the know.

 

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Old 14th Jul 2008, 09:47 AM
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Default Luis Builds a PDRacer - a pro woodworker view from Mexico

Howdy ... I am collecting the contents of Luis' building of the PDR. He is a Professional Woodworker "South of the Border, down Mexico Way" as the song goes.

We already have met Luis in another thread ... I repeat the post here for completeness.

LUG OR SPRIT OR LATEEN?

This was prompted by daddles on the general PDR thread.

The funny thing I was writing a reply for Luis Grauer who was asking the same question earlier in the day. While I was writing I thought, "maybe I need to put this info up somewhere".

The first question was to compare the sprit with the balance lug

Quote:
I just downloaded the PDRacer plan for $20, and as we say here,esta absolutamente perfecto. Muchisimas gracias. So where do I look for your dicussions on the pros & cons of the lug rig? With all the writing you do, how do you find time to work/sleep?
The sprit rig is by far the easiest to make work well. and is much more trouble free for someone who just wants to put the sail up and go out. The mast is a bit long - but it goes on most car roofs with only a little overhang each end. YOu can get good performance without understanding much at all about sail setting.



The lug rig is more compact but a little bit more fiddly in use. Not a lot - it still rigs quite quickly but it doesn't have the absolute trouble free feeling of the sprit. There is more work in making the spars. But they will go on a trailer without too much overhang and on a car roof with no overhang. You need to make quite a lot of decisions to get the rig to work really well - though my guides for both types will give you a head start.

This pic is of the launching of the first OZ PDR with the optional balance lug rig. I have put the full article up here. That is about 89 square feet of sail on that little boat folks. We have gone big because we know the OZ can handle 82 sq ft in the taller sprit rig fine and this lug can be reefed nicely.



Luis got back to me

Quote:
I've owned a boat before, a Swedish Kings Cruiser(9m bermudian sloop), also a Snipe and a Lightning, but I've only sailed Gaff and Bermudian rigs.

Tom Jones highly recommends the srit rig(sail shaped like a gaffer), and you apparently prefer the lug, as does Ian Oughtred, So the question is "Where can I read up on the lug rig?"

I had planned the3 sprit rig for my Dobler, but I'm open to other ideas, and since dealing with you and reading your stuff, I'm leaning towards boatmik solutions, but I'd still like to rerad what I can. So where do I encounter your guides?
Howdy Luis,

I don't have it all in one place.
Some of the discussion is on this page
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/t...rformance.html

But briefly - the reason bermudan rigs perform well is because they have a boom vang to control sail twist. Remove this and the traditional rigs that CAN control twist have a huge performance advantage. For example the Balance Lug was the premier racing rig in small boats, easily outclassing the gaff until the bermudan rig came along and extra bits to control the sail.

The rigs that can do this without any extra gear are the triangular sprit, the balance lug and the lateen.

I don't like the lateen a lot because as you reef the sail takes on a pretty weird shape that makes it hard to sail and control the boat. Like a low narrow triangle.



In a way the balance lug converts to a lateen as it is rigged - so I class them as close relations.

The triangular sprit is the most effective at preventing twist and is so simple to set up

The four corner sprit is a rig I have almost no time for. And in boomless configuration as per the pic below it is even more useless in performance terms - anyone who says that a boomless sail is highly efficient is either racing a super high performance racing catamaran with a curved traveller or ... is allowing the advertising prose to get ahead of the facts. Anyway ... there is a more detailed argument about boomless in the article I linked to above. There are good reasons to go boomless, but performance ain't one of them.



The other rigs can have sailshape and spar diameter set up to get gust response. That a gust comes, the spars bend a predetermined amount and which flattens the sail, reducing power. Then when the gust ends the spars straighten, the sail becomes fuller, increasing the amount of power the sail can develop. This allows the boat to accelerate freely in the gusts without the sailor having to do much at all.

The four corner spirt cannot do this at all - everything it triangulated and the mast bend has no control over the depth of the top of the sail. Also it is a total pain to reef because all the action is happening high above the deck. I think it is one of the most unhandy rigs ever developed. It's only real advantage in my books is it can spread a LOT of sail on a short mast.

Most who suggest other rigs are either working to criteria other than efficiency for the buck or have not spent much time carving his way round a racecourse in modern boats and is probably assumings that history is the best teacher.

There are some fine lessons in history, but as Henry Ford might have said if he had been a more reasonable man - Much of History is Bunk. And this is particularly in terms of what makes a boat sail well. Almost all advances have come from racing dinghies over the last 70 years.

I try to take the best of that progress and ally it with the traditional rigs that meet the same criteria as the modern ones. This cuts many of the trad rigs out of the list because they either cannot control twist or do not allow a dynamic interaction between spar bend and sail shape.

As far as Luis' question about getting sleep when I do so much writing ... It is 12.40am.

Best wishes
Michael Storer
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 09:54 AM
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What is in the back of Luis' mind.

Quote:
Thanks, Mik, I just bought 6 sheets of 6mm exterior plywood to make two pdrs and hopefully get some people sailing here.

Some of these people don't speak english, so if they want to build a boat do you have plans in spanish? I don't expect you do. If there are enough people interested I'll translate the info and send it to you to get people going in Spain and South America.

Send me the info on remunerating Storer boat designs, so if I wind up making a few boats(I surely hope to) i can get you your part.
I was quite excited to hear this ... as it is a similar idea to the PDRacers in Senegal. Someone wants to do a similar thing in deepest, darkest Sydney too.

We also discussed masts and foils

Quote:
I got the plans for the GIS.

Two questions. Is the foil pattern the same as for the pdr?

For the masts ... Good lumber isn't that easy to find here. If I can't find fine enough grain, do I a)make the staves a bit thicker b)go ahead and build it anyway c) give up?
Hi Luis,

Never consider it wasted time with a guy who picks up as quick as you do!!!

OK even if you can't find super fine grained oregon (Douglas Fir) for the spars - the GIS is over specced anyhow because of the chances of three big blokes on the gunwale holding her dead flat in a big breeze. So as long as the timber is in the right weight range and is gluable and is free of any knots ... then it will be OK.

If you have any concerns about the yard and boom materials you could always laminate them up - this stops even quite coarse grained timber from warping or breaking through easily.

The foil shapes for the GIS and and PDR are for centreboards and rudders that use a 22mm thick blank. This is about the best economical size for the foils - So all my boats use this thickness in this range. This means the foilplots in the plan are interchangeable if a little bit different.

MIK
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 10:03 AM
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Howdy Luis,

With questions ... Remember that there have been a number of boats built from the plan ... so it means the plans do work. So obvious errors like the different mast cross sections will be taken account of later. It does not mean they are perfect either - so I expect some questions.
Quote:
Howdy Mik,
I'm building my first boat and am ready to assemble the parts to have a real boat this evening. In checking over the plans for where the cockpit bulkhead goes(in front of the line, behind the line, or centered on the line),
In my drawing on the computer the bulkhead has the front face on the line. Which is really the most aft (back) position that is possible. This means that if it accidently goes in a little forward of that position then the builder will just have to trim a little off the mast step and mast partner. So in other words it is not critical and will still work whatever the eventuality.

Quote:
I was fooling with the mast step and noticed that the distance between the runners is 58mm and that the base of the mast is 62mm, so is the 58mm a mistake or do we taper the mast to 58mm after building or what.
Correct - all explained in the mast section.

Quote:
I'm timing myself, just to get an idea, and have cut out the plywood for two boats and have put the cleats on all the bulkheads including those to support the centercase, and put the 19x19 pieces the lenght of the hull pieces, ready to assemble, in 7 hours.

I tell you this in case you want this kind of feedback to pass on to other prospective builders.

I must also say that I am a professional carpenter with a more or less complete workshop which definitely speeds things up. I'd add maybe 2 hours for an amateur and another hour or so for the shop. I'm having a good time. Thanks for the good map.
Thankyou for this Luis... If you want to keep feeding back in this way it would be a great thing. I will put it up on the woodwork forums.

MIK
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 01:16 PM
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luis grauer wrote:

Quote:
Thanks for the quick response. I just put the bottom on the boat, so I have a boat!!!!! I'm going to register the hull when I finish this.
COOL COOL COOL!

Quote:
What I'm doing this time is a kind of experiment. I'm building this boat and one more with locally available materials.

The reason I'm doing this is that many people will not try to order things from out of country, so I want to see what can be done without what?

So I am resorting to Medium tech. In some ways I'm sure you will benefit from this, although I bet you want your boats to be as good as they can possibly be, and I am with you there.

I want interest, because if five or six people are interested in building, I can afford to go to the u.s. and buy plywood and epoxy.

We'll se what comes of this!

They won't be real good boats because the important things like marine plywood and epoxy are not available here, so I'm using exterior grade plywood and "Liquid Nails" subfloor adhesive and nails(drywall screrws on the bottom).

We used a differwent brand of subfloor adhesive in Canada building houses and it held well enough that the few times I had to lift plywood from a floor the plywood came apart or sometimes the joists lost some wood, and it is weatherproof. It's a rare floor that doesn't get rained on.

I'm concerned about the mast. I wonder if I should go solid wood or try using polyester resin to glue it. Any thoughts?
First ... epoxy is by far the best glue and overcomes all sorts of shortages in skills and material quality. I am saying this for anyone who is following this thread here.

Liquid nails is not a particularly good glue.

See the reference I gave you about other glues. The main weakness of other glues compared to epoxy is that they are not gap filling. (By the way ... this page says the fumes from epoxy are toxic - they are less so than any of the solvent based glues in the list)
http://www.pdracer.com/glue/index.htm

I am not sure how using other glues will go - but I would like to suggest the best way to reduce some of the risks and make a more durable boat. This means moving to the standard method of building before epoxies came into the scene.

My preferred method if using those glues would be to glass tape the chines and transom corners with 2" (50mm) glass and polyester resin.

Also use permanent fasteners as well as glue from the outside of the hull into the centrecase framing - maybe 4 screws up each side. If the bottom has been glued on with the Liquid nails I would like to see screws through the frames across the bottom as well.

The drywall screws will rust though. So will need to be replaced with stainless steel or Bronze. Some heavy galvanised screws might be OK too - but the electroplated galv ones are useless. Also boatbuilder's bronze barbed "ring nails" would be OK, but not as effective as screws around the centrecase area.

Quote:
I haven't coated anything for lack of epoxy, but it just struck me that perhaps I could coat it with polyester. What do you think? I know polyester doesn't bond nearly as well to the wood, but maybe it's better than nothing.
I would not use polyester for coating or gluing - it is too brittle and doesn't stick to wood very well.

Paint or varnish is much better for protecting the wood and sticking. I would do the interior of tanks etc with varnish - maybe three coats to reduce water absorbtion - light sand between coats.

If using varnish on exterior surfaces - you will need lots of coats - usually 6 with a light sand between. Make sure you use an exterior varnish. And the boats will last a lot longer if you can keep the sun off them when they are not being used.

Quote:
I'm going to Matamoros, on the Texas bordwer tomorrow, to pick up a truck for a friend, should be back thursday and I'll send some pictures. Being for all intents and purposes compuilliterate, I'll have to send the pic's from my kodak easy-share site that seems to arrive with red flags on it, but so0 far nothing ugly has gotten mixed in with the fotos other than maybe my picture. Got a surprise for you, too.
You can give me the site address and I can do the rest if you like - send it to my email.

Quote:
Hasta jueves. I'm abou 10 hours into building with the bottom on
haha - great news!!!!

MIK
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