Thread: Prepared for winter...

Originally Posted by callsign222

I have a confession to make...

I secretly want to race a Beth against one of these in Mystic some year and see what the end result is.

This is an interesting idea indeed!
There are no sailing canoes for similar comparison/confrontation in Poland - classic sailing canoes not popular in my country, but there are few sailing kayaks/canoes too - for example (sailing kayak/canoe "P6" designed by M.Plucinski in 1937 and redesigned in 1955):
Picasa Web Albums - Radek Radziejewski - Wdzydze - cze...

I think - Beth has a bit smaller sailing area and her hull have better initial stability than 16/30 sailing canoe. Beth's a bit wider flat bottom could be better for planing. 16/30 has bigger sail area and can be hiked by sliding leaning plank in strong wind, but lower point of effort of Beth's sail is good for strong winds too... IMHO 16/30 will be better on light winds thanks her smoother hull and really bigger sail area, and probably in moderate and strong winds she could to be very speed too - she is designed for racing not for cruising and recreation!
Beth is better for sailors like me - experienced but not excellent fitted ... and able for recreation and cruising - they are different canoes for different purposes.

The 16/30 only carries 5 square feet of extra canvas, not much more at all. The trick is being able to keep her flat, which they accomplish with the plank, however this adds all sorts of considerable weight and structure throughout the hull. I wonder, since the Beth is significantly lighter than the 16/30, what the sum total of the differences would be? Hence the friendly race idea. It might be no contest, or I might give them a run for their money. Regardless, it would be a fun time with good-looking sailing canoes.

The easier build and the cost-effectiveness of the Beth too, is also part of this comparison, so maybe not a "race" judged just on speed, but a "race" in the big-picture sense.

I can only dream, I really need to get a job before I start a Beth, but it's in my mind. If I start one, it will be my "art project" and hence who knows when I'll get her done. I don't need to race anymore to get a boat finished, the Goat is my salvation... everything else is gravy.

Originally Posted by callsign222

Regardless, it would be a fun time with good-looking sailing canoes.

Oh yes! It would be fantastic!

Check out this video recently posted: 16/30 shows up at 6:25

Interesting amount of drag created by the plank and surrounding structure when the canoe dips a rail.

A beautiful video over all, with lots of cool boats!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTkyR_2WgtA"]YouTube - Parade of Sail[/ame]

Thanks for the video link Christophe.

My first impression is that the 16/30 is not very fast, at least in that light stuff. When the puffs arrived there was none of the rapid acceleration that are characteristics of the Beth and the Goat Island Skiff.

I'd hazard a guess that in those conditions at least, the Beth's skipper would have enjoyed a shower and a couple of glasses of the amber stuff by the time the 16/30 arrived home.

A quality video showing some really nice boats that I recognise from pics in Wooden Boat. It's great to see them actually sailing.

Howdy,

I am pretty sure that BETH will be slower than the 16/30. There is just not enough righting moment to go really fast beam reaching.

There is something to be said for leaning planks in terms of outright speed. But not for BETH. Too much complication and load on what is an otherwise very simple and minimal boat.

If Beth was able to beat a 16/30 in anything other than light and light/moderate breezes then the 16/30 is just not being sailed right.

In light and light/medium breezes BETH might be able to do well out of sheer efficiency, because all the parts are quite highly developed. Foils, light hull etc. And the 16/30 won't be using its plank - particularly if the sails are allowed to twist off as in the pics.

On a broad reach in a blow (in a real blow on not too bumpy water I have shocked windsurfers), she would be much easier to sail. And might be OK upwind comparatively if the wind is gusty - because she is easier to sail and fairly efficient.

Best wishes
Michael

Some 16/30 Construction pics. You can see where all the extra sheets come in. The same problem I was struggling with a bit in the self draining RAID 41. Though it had way more surface area and came out of seven sheets of ply too.

Looking at the pics below, I can see details and timber sizes that seem to make sense in terms of trying to get a traditionally built canoe to hold together - like the long wide plank up the middle of the foredeck and all the bulkheads aft.

It might have been a choice to keep the structure as similar to the traditional boats as possible so they wouldn't be completely outclassed by the new boat.

This also goes for the hull design. Uffa Fox, the English designer created a breakthrough by taking the international canoe challenge trophy from the Americans with boats like this
Uffa Fox - "Racing, Cruising and Design" - International Canoe Class - Flying Fish

Very powerful compared to the narrowness of the 16/30. But it was about 30 years in the future.

The deckline of BETH (widths) was originally taken from a Rushton sailing canoe form. That was the starting point. About the same era as the 16/30s but a much more recreationally oriented boat. I don't know where I would have gone if I had seen the 16/30 while planning BETH. Maybe I would have considered it too much of a raceboat for my purposes. Beautiful, certainly. But then I wasn't influenced hugely by the then modern canoes that are more like Uffa Fox's deckline.

MIK

About 16/30 and Beth comparison and more...

Really fine video from callsign222's post(so many beautiful boats!!! thank you!) - I can see a 16/30's mizzen is to lee (easy) than boat can not to accelerate - I think. Certainly - adjusting both sails can be a bit difficult and I often see than my mizzen is to lee or to oversheet. It needs from skipper to be still very careful/attentive for it - especially when a mizzen is a bigger part of his boat's sail area. In my opinion: 16/30 is really more difficult for sailing than Beth, but - do you remember that video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH7XjW4mNwg"]YouTube - Sailing Canoe BETH YuanFen - Dziekanowskie Lake (Poland)[/ame]

Wind was gusting from Force 2 up to Force 4 than first reef on main was taken, but in gusts hiking was exciting often... whenever initial stability of Beth is really better tahn 16/30's.

Do you remeber that video (my most favorite):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-TNI19FkOg"]YouTube - Rushton Princess[/ame]

Round bottomed Rushton Princess sailing in moderate breeze - watch her low initial stability and heels.

And modern version of IC 10 sqm:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Z5S4ly6sg"]YouTube - International Canoe dinghy action 2007 Lord Birkett Memorial Trophy[/ame]

Hmmmm... there are really an acrobatic skills needed.

***
I'm very interested in real comparison of similar boats but especially classic sailing canoes in different wind and sea conditions.

What's with these people who are stingy with the libations to Poseidon, like the builder of the Rushton Princess at 1:55?!?!

Dump the whole bottle already, jeez-O!




Neat tiller.

Originally Posted by callsign222

What's with these people who are stingy with the libations to Poseidon, like the builder of the Rushton Princess at 1:55?!?!

Dump the whole bottle already, jeez-O!

Ha ha! Do you think they are mean?

Originally Posted by callsign222

Neat tiller.

Yes, very interesting! I think it's really useful - there is a moment with self steering (at 3:42)



***
About acrobatic skills:
Sailors are skilled but some of them are stupid too...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBsA3wa5OGE"]YouTube - Svaneke havn - sindsyg indsejlning[/ame]
Polish 40ft sailboat arriving Svaneke - tiny harbour on Bornholm (Danish island on Baltic Sea)

WOW that was something. Stupid is a subjective term that is dependent on the person in question.



I think if someone is going to take the time to pour libations on a boat, that person should go all or nothing. Nothing like cheating Poseidon outta some booze and getting slapped in the face.

Originally Posted by callsign222

WOW that was something. Stupid is a subjective term that is dependent on the person in question.

Probably you are right - it was safe in result...
but...

Originally Posted by callsign222

I think if someone is going to take the time to pour libations on a boat, that person should go all or nothing. Nothing like cheating Poseidon outta some booze and getting slapped in the face.

He afraid than Poseidon will be drunk too much

Who knows? It could be perilously stupid, or maybe he's done this a million times. Or there was a medical emergency on board. But definitely, WOW. So either ballsy, or stupid.


A drunk Poseidon is a happy Poseidon!

Originally Posted by callsign222

Or there was a medical emergency on board.

Bornholm is an island and there are few of harbours around not far one to one - some of them were more protected (Nexo for example) in that time... But Polish sailors very skilled are...

Originally Posted by callsign222

A drunk Poseidon is a happy Poseidon!

***
And about classic sailing canoes again:

Vesper

70.8%: Search results for emmett smith


Small Craft Advisor - All blog entries

and Rushton Princess again (another incarnation)


Ione

William Clements - Boat Builder [Home Page]

and Ione again
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ik9RWeOZsM"]YouTube - Ione - Sailing Canoe at Cedar Key Small Boat Meet[/ame]

***and Beth for comparison: