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  1. #16
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    Hi MIK; I will hopefully put together the canoe as speedy as I built the Oz MkII PDRacer. Ice will be a problem though. Maybe the maiden voyage will have to be in Vancouver B.C. in the ocean (an hours drive away). It doesn't freeze over, but its still pretty chilly.
    Rick.

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  3. #17
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Sitting all day waiting for the Sheffield Shield cricket match between NSW and Vic to start (unfortunately it was rained out), I got to thinking about this "disposable" concept of Mick's. (Oh dear, thinking can be dangerous in my case, )

    It might be easier when travelling to acquire cheap framing timber and use a fabric or some other skin. However, I'm not thinking in terms of a doped fabric, although this need not necessarily be ruled out. What I'm thinking about is that strong, clear flexible plastic sheeting like the one I used for the windows of my daughter's cubby house many years ago. It's kind of like a thicker X-Ray film. Those clear windows are still as good today as they were when built, so it has good external stability, even though this is not important for Mick's concept. Many hardware stores and some like Clark Rubber have it and it's not expensive.

    The beauty about the plastic film skin is that it will easily mold to a shape and gaffa tape sticks to it like crazy, so I imagine that a nice, strong and waterproof skin could be made from it. I mentioned X-Ray film. As a second choice, and certainly cheaper if they can be procured, old X-Ray films could be overlapped and taped together, even double skinned on the bottom? I wonder if old ones are available at hospitals? I have a radiologist friend so I could ask. How funky would that look!
    Seems like there isn't much new in boats these days. When I picked up my December issue of wooden Boat mag, here is a guy who has done exactly what I was thinking of with the Wee Lassie.

    Oh well, at least I know my idea worked!
    Attachment 124582

    Somehow, I don't think the skin is 20mm vinyl. Probably a misprint and is 2mm.

  4. #18
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    Oct 2007
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    Poland
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    67
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    805

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    I think if you look carefully you will find that the fin at the bow and the fin at the stern is either a new idea or one that has been forgotten for a while or nobody has publicised it well
    Oh yes MIK

    I can see all differences! JEM's canoe is absolutely different. Similarity is only on the surface (all cars have 4 wheels and... they are similar each other )
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  5. #19
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    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobWes View Post
    Mik,

    Cool idea.

    What size individual could this canoe safely accommodate?

    While I realize big people canoe and kayak, when I weighed 260 pounds, I was always concerned about stability - and, me being me, convinced myself I was "too big" to canoe.

    Fast forward to today - I'm now under 200 pounds and wondering about a canoe design. Something quick and easy would suit - I saw 1/4" "Sanded one side hardwood ply" for $20 a sheet today. A canoe coming out of $60 worth of ply would be a bargain - but only if it can accommodate my bulk. ( I know there would be other costs but it wouldn't drive the cost up by much.)

    So is this design something I ought to be considering? Thanks.
    Howdy BobWes,

    If you wanted a nice canoe I would push you towards the Eureka, but these two boats are designed around people who want to either "give it a try" or, like me, want something quickly built for a specific purpose that doesn't suck up too many resources in time or money.

    You would always have to remember that this canoe is design to be the "least bad" that I can make it. I think this is a reasonable approach!

    I am about to head off and drive my mum up to Forster (four hours north of Sydney) so my laptop is packed away.

    The little canoe is a solo double paddle canoe (two bladed paddle) and would carry your weight fine, but may not have enough extra capacity for some camping gear. Testing will tell!

    The bigger one would have no trouble at all.

    Basically the little one exists because I wanted to see how big a canoe I could get out of two sheets of ply using this idea and might suit some.

    The boxy hullshape does mean the boat sinks down less far as weight is added compared to a more refined shape.

    Best wishes
    Michael

  6. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
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    Hi all,
    Bjorn Landstrom's 'Sailing Ships' has a nice reconstruction of a 7thC Nordic merchantman based on pictoral stones from Gotland with triangular 'cutwaters' under those beautiful curved clinker stems and sternposts - a bit like Michael's bow and stern fins on the 'disposable canoe'.

    Landstrom says: "..many sailing ships in Nordic waters, above all merchantmen, which were more dependant than warships on good sailing qualities, were fitted with cutwaters... Modern copies have demonstrated their ability to sail even to windward.."

    I'm not suggesting that you'd sail the disposable canoe, but the idea of bow and stern fins for lateral stability obviously has some serious precedent from a pretty cluey bunch of boatbuilders and sailors.

    As for a faster-to-build disposable boat: Part of the reason it takes so much longer to build the Eureka is that I spend so long just standing around and looking at it from every conceivable angle... Which I reckon is a pretty good use of my time.
    Cheers and merry Christmas,
    Jack

  7. #21
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    Thanks for that Jack,

    I have read so much stuff in the past that it hard to see how much I've been influenced by the literature! I think some of this cutwater thinking would have permeated at some point - because now I have seen it I do remember reading the discussion!

    Best wishes
    Michael

  8. #22
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    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    Rick has gone out to buy the wood to build the bigger of the two canoes. I think he will do it in about 4 or 5 days .. he built an OZ PDR in ten days.

    He will take pics and I will put them in the plans ... hopefully so I can finish around New Year.

    That way I can start the 12ft Son of Goat in early January.

    MIK

  9. #23
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    May 2008
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    UK
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    Quote Originally Posted by seajak View Post
    I can attest to the effectiveness of the hollows in the ends of the Wee Lassie. The tupperware sit-on-top in my avatar has similar shapes and tracks as though it's on rails despite having considerable rocker.
    clay
    Walking along the tow path in Little Venice, canal marina in central London this weekend, visting elder son, a SOT was resting upside down on a barge. I immediately could see what Clay meant. Both ends had a cutwater moulded in and the shape was quite broad at the base and fine at the cutting edge.

    Made me realise the cutwaters could be quite shapely and make a big reduction in the bow bottom panel slamming and improve the flow of water quite a bit. Imagine the cutwater having a 4" width at it's base base or so, curving to a fine entry to visulaise the idea.

    Another tech question.

    If this new design has same gunnel beam as Eureka and side are straight, then there will be far more volume in the hull. To make it so these cutwaters are anywhere near the water, do you reduce rocker or narrow the beam so she sits on her waterlines?

    Brian

  10. #24
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    I'm throwing this in because here is some video of an International Sailing Tin Canoe constructed from a single sheet of corrugated roofing iron 164" long, with a recycled rig and showing some remarkable pace.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj-S-zAf0jI"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

    And some other less refined examples, but probably even more fun.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CehOTV3AhI"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

  11. #25
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    Jul 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter View Post
    Another tech question.

    If this new design has same gunnel beam as Eureka and side are straight, then there will be far more volume in the hull. To make it so these cutwaters are anywhere near the water, do you reduce rocker or narrow the beam so she sits on her waterlines?

    Brian
    Spot on - good observation. Basically if you look at the side view the rocker is tweaked up suddenly at the ends with the 15'6" boat.

    That makes use of the idea that you don't want the bow and stern of a flat bottomedish boat (this goes right through to maxi yachts) immersed as you get a finer entry if the knuckle of the bow is above the water.

    There used to be an old design measurement called the "Half Entry angle" where you see the angle at the waterline when looking at the plan view. It is a load of codswallop. It might have had some relevance when stems just kept going down under the water with traditional hullforms, but since the advent of the cutaway forefoot over a hundred years ago it has very little relevance to modern light boats.

    With the little one it doesn't need the tweak as it already has a fair bit of rocker to accommodate the weight of the crew and to keep the ends out of the water in the normal loading range.

    The ends of the flat panel are as narrow as I can make them and get the side panel ply to retain some resemblance of good behaviour.

    MIK

  12. #26
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    I would suspect the flat bottomed canoes will sail at least as well as a traditionally shaped canoe!

    Would probably plane down the fin at the front somewhat though if it proved to be too grippy downwind in waves.

    MIK

  13. #27
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    Well a couple of developments. Maybe someone can help me too.

    First there is already an EZ canoe design - so I can't use that name.

    So have to think up another that gives the feeling of simple and cheap without being stoopid!

    But the main thing is I was looking for info on using duct tape instead of stitching the hull together. It could be real fast if it works OK. Duct tape on outside. Epoxy fillet or glass the inside - filleting will be easier up the stems.

    Plenty of sites talk about using duct tape for holding decks down, others for stopping 'leaks" between the stitching - wasted effort because it is not a prob if the panels are about right - but lots of sites talk about it.

    But so far no detailed references to using duct tape instead of stitching.

    MIK

  14. #28
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    Lindfield N.S.W.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Well a couple of developments. Maybe someone can help me too.

    First there is already an EZ canoe design - so I can't use that name.

    So have to think up another that gives the feeling of simple and cheap without being stoopid!


    MIK
    You could try something based on Archimedes - the guy who shouted Eureka!

    Or how about Friday/Monday - you can get it built in a weekend.
    Cheers

    Jeremy
    If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter View Post
    This thread is very close to Tom Yosts work in some ways.

    Yostwerks Kayak Building Manuals - Homebuilt kayaks by Thomas Yost

    wood frame clear film, inflatable, and a new hybrid inflatable-mininal frame design. Perhaps some ideas might be gleaned?
    Brian
    I didn't really answer this.

    I do like some of the new inflatable kayaks and canoes. I think there are some interesting things happening there. They do sometimes share some of the characteristics of the simplified ply canoes as they blow around, but some of the developments seem to be aware of that.

    Skin on frame ... I think it is heavy and weak and hydrodynamically crappy. I do like some of the developments in the area, particularly some of Platt Montford's stuff, but the method struggles to get down to the weight of my balsa canoe and the fabric will balloon in like normal. Also a lot of those cool hollows have to go as the fabric will want to span them.

    So ... I am a rigid skin man. I think the inflatables are a better way of developing portable canoes and represent a better path in future. Just pump 'em up and little shape distortion from water pressure

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Well a couple of developments. Maybe someone can help me too.

    First there is already an EZ canoe design - so I can't use that name.

    So have to think up another that gives the feeling of simple and cheap without being stoopid!

    But the main thing is I was looking for info on using duct tape instead of stitching the hull together. It could be real fast if it works OK. Duct tape on outside. Epoxy fillet or glass the inside - filleting will be easier up the stems.

    Plenty of sites talk about using duct tape for holding decks down, others for stopping 'leaks" between the stitching - wasted effort because it is not a prob if the panels are about right - but lots of sites talk about it.

    But so far no detailed references to using duct tape instead of stitching.

    MIK
    Sometimes a suitable name is the hardest part of a project! Could be an appropriate name might result out of the building of a prototype and some unique feature of it.

    I must say I'm not totally sold on the idea of using epoxy fillets in this product. Yes, they are easy to do and selling the idea to nousy people who have built a boat before is not an issue, but it's the first time builder's perception of the process that worries me a bit and this could be a point of resistance. They might consider the use of epoxy as a permanent solution to a temporary build. There is also the expense of the epoxy that might put builders off..

    Could your idea be made to work with JUST nylon ties, duct tape an few screws or nails? Duct tape also for sealing the joins inside, stuck over caulking goo stuff out of a tube with a nozzle? A few screws or barbed nails to hold the frame perhaps?

    Just some thoughts from a marketing perspective, and which might help make your design more unique.

    As for the name, maybe EzyPezy Canoe

    Last edited by woodeneye; 23rd December 2009 at 08:35 PM. Reason: Decided to suggest a name for the design

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