Thread: Quick Canoe Sailing Potential - No such thing as bad questions

The other, and probably easiest way to get aboard is to have a centreboard - like beth. With no side buoyancy it is not that far above water level so easy enough to get back aboard. And the low sides help too.

Interesting comments on the geometry of the beam and freeboard - I will have a closer look at that - could be quite valuable information.

The wider beam starts to look like the Swedish Sailing Canoes we looked at some time ago on this forum. Wonder if a "Quick" version of one of those would make sense commercially - at least to fit inside their class rules.

But the quick canoe and drop in rig combination is really simple and with some attention to detail will sail quite well.

Michael

Here is a specific question in regards to the QC.

Why solid timber gunwales/inwales and centre spreader?
Why not do them in ply?

I ask as the solid timber in mine was comparatively expensive, compared to the $35 per sheet 'proof ply' I used.

Howdy Clinton,

Sorry ... I've been laid up with a lurgy for a couple of days .. not too bad now.

Timber pricing is a problem outside North America. The timber quickly becomes more expensive than the ply.

In principle there is no particular problem with building up the needed timber sizes using ply.

In an ultimate sense the ply only has half the strength of timber and laminated ply would be somewhat more flexible, but apart from the extra labour of laminating gunwales and inwales out of ply and trimming them down there is probably no major reason why you couldn't do it that way.

There would be a couple of extra cautions. If the water gets contact with a ply gunwale or keel/skeg it will be absorbed very readily. Also the normal cautions of gluing to endgrain would have to be considered in more parts of the boat.

I don't think it is worth the extra fussing around, but would make a nice article on Duckworks Magazine.

MIK

Thanks Michael.

I have the ply for a second QC sitting around, so I might do it that way... have to work out the effort in cutting strips and then scarfing together some salvaged Oregon doors, versus the lamination effort.

I think I'll just do the gunwales/inwales, and leave keel/skeg solid.

Ply is flexible - would adding tape between a layer of ply provide any weight effective stiffening?

Part of the problem with putting this thread in your "Michael Storer WB Plans" section is that I'd like to ask generalised questions...

Such as:
What purpose does the tape/epoxy serve?

Is this too generalised for this sub-forum?

Howdy,
I am finialising my QC these days. I plan to install a mastbase on the bottom. Later on I will build in the drop-in sailing rig of Michael - for light cruising purposes (nothing extreme). Where do you think should I position the mast in QC?

The bottom of the boat got one layer of glass cloth (220 g/sm). Do you think it is enough to accommodate the forces or do I need more reinforcements inside?

Thanks
Csaba - Mezix

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Thanks Michael.

I have the ply for a second QC sitting around, so I might do it that way... have to work out the effort in cutting strips and then scarfing together some salvaged Oregon doors, versus the lamination effort.

I think I'll just do the gunwales/inwales, and leave keel/skeg solid.

Ply is flexible - would adding tape between a layer of ply provide any weight effective stiffening?

Part of the problem with putting this thread in your "Michael Storer WB Plans" section is that I'd like to ask generalised questions...

Such as:
What purpose does the tape/epoxy serve?

Is this too generalised for this sub-forum?

That is a perfect question for everyone here too.

The epoxy is the best choice because it glues reliably to wood, unlike polyester. The polyester is a compromise. In terms of sailing loads I would much rather see a boat glued with epoxy than polyester used for the glass taping or other glues are used for the woodwork side.

I think you can still change a polyester built quick canoe to a sailing one, but would have to take a little bit more care with the added structure to spread out the loads on the structure.

The purpose of the glass tape is that the threads of the tape cross the join in the plywood. so the load is transferred from one part of the boat to the other.

If you imagine a wooden cleat join the wood transfers the load from one piece of ply to another. It need to have enough glue area with the ply to do the job.

The glass tape gets the bonding area without the material having to be thick like wood. Time has shown that 50mm tape is about right for up to 6mm ply.

One thing that people often don't realise (you can see evidence on the net) is that the amount of glass tape needs to be adjusted for thicker plywood for a full glass tape only join. But the single layer is Ok for almost any construction up to 6mm ply.

Not enough for anything bigger than that.

Best wishes
MIK

Originally Posted by Mezix

Howdy,
I am finialising my QC these days. I plan to install a mastbase on the bottom. Later on I will build in the drop-in sailing rig of Michael - for light cruising purposes (nothing extreme). Where do you think should I position the mast in QC?

The bottom of the boat got one layer of glass cloth (220 g/sm). Do you think it is enough to accommodate the forces or do I need more reinforcements inside?

Thanks
Csaba - Mezix

Howdy Csaba,

A couple of things ... I am about to draw up the sail and spars for something similar to the larger sail that Paul has been using.

The "drop in rig" plans do suggest putting layers of glass tape or a heavy unidirectional glass from one gunwale around the inside of the boat to the other gunwale - this is particularly important if the canoe has been built with polyester resin.

But the bottom panel of the full width quick canoe (paul's is 100mm narrower) might be a bit flexible, so I am just considering whether it needs any full width support.

The load is not from the amount of sail because the rig is free standing. It is has wires to hold up the mast they add a lot of compression load that loads up the bottom. With the quick canoe it will be mostly the downhaul tension pushing the mast downward.

Best wishes
Michael

Originally Posted by Boatmik

With the quick canoe it will be mostly the downhaul tension pushing the mast downward. - Michael

MIK, how about anchoring the downhaul low on the mast itself (or to the mast step) when practical, rather than to the deck or a thwart? Seems to me that would eliminate the forces that push the mast (and hull bottom) downward and pull the deck structure upward -- so no added strains on the boat, and no downhaul-tension-robbing hull distortion. Does that make any sense?

Cheers, Grant

thanks Mik... appreciated.

Great discussion. Yep, MIK nailed it. I have been becoming one with this boat in ways which have surprised me. At first it seemed very tender. Now it does not (but I know that is really is). I have become comfortable sheeting in tighter and tighter and leaning farther which has added speed and the speed has brought dynamic stability. The motorboat wakes and chop this weekend were crazy and I never went over because I used my body in a way similar to how I would use it in whitewater. The boat did pound a bit in the chop but sailing to all points, while never relaxed was still possible and, for four hours at a time, was exhilarating challenging fun.

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Re-entry after knock-down: With the little 21 sq ft sail rig (MIK's Drop-In rig) I did a practice recovery and was able to re-board the swamped boat with the aid of the required throw-able float cushion, then bailed it from within. With the larger rig I am going to have to go do a lot of practice. I am afraid I might have to remove the mast, re-board, bale and then either reset and re-rig, or stow everything and paddle to shore. Recovery practice really needs to be my next chapter. I will also probably not sail this configuration in winter. Certainly not until I get the recovery worked out and then only with full drysuit and on well chosen days.

Note that my boat, with 100mm less beam, also differs in that it does not have the skegs which MIK designed for the Quick Canoe. (I built with the skegs, then removed them for better maneuvering when canoeing on a river).

Another thing I found in the heave chop (surely all this is known to experienced sailors...but I'm having to re-invent the wheel up here in the mountains with few other sailors around): When running I would normally raise the leeboard and sit aft, but in chop I had to keep the board down to dampen roll and needed my body near center to have better leverage when leaning due to the wider beam midships.If this gave me too much weather helm I did not feel it, but that may be because I have setup my rudder control lines tight so that the rudder mostly stays where I put it.

Looks like that didn't work Maybe this way:
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Maybe this one will work: http://flic.kr/p/8yFnwk

Mezix asked about where to place the mast in a QC. I went by the Drop-in Sail Rig plans (but had to interpolate from the drawings in the plan because the universal nature made that necessary) and that got it pretty close. Then I set it up and sailed a fair lot using temporary clamps until I was happy with the position. A few weeks ago I added a weighted rudder and that could change things as could the weight of the skipper. I know that is not very specific, but hope it helps.

Knock-down & recovery:

Yesterdays' forecast was 20 mph and gusty, so I figured it might be ideal for checking out what I had been thinking for knock-down recovery in my 15.5 x 22” (beam measured at chines) QC with its new larger (39 sq ft) sail. I've been meaning to do it but kept putting it off. This time, because of the forecast, my wife arranged her schedule so that I could go, but I got a last minute call for work, so ended up with only a few hours in late afternoon (which was enough!) When I arrived at the lake whole trees were in motion and dust was being swept up into the air from the gravel parking lot. I figure we had Force 4 at least. The lake is small, surrounded by hills and is known for squirrely wind shifts. I decided that I would use all sail and take my lesson wherever and whenever offered.

After about an hour, getting up on a plane on numerous broad reaches (Yee-Ha!), I finally went over on a jibe. I was in deep water near the middle of the lake and the boat did turn turtle. (Wind was still Force 4). I moved around to the windward side and righted the boat with little effort. The leeboard was available for initial leverage, but mainly I just pulled the boat toward me. Bow and stern are were fitted with whitewater canoe type airbags so she floated high with the sail flying out, downwind, away from me. I did not try to enter the boat with the sail up because I figured the wind would keep me from the task of bailing her out. I reached up and doused the sail, which fell off to the windward side out of the way. With a kick, I was able to enter the boat and bale her out with the bottomless gallon plastic Clorox jug that I keep tethered to the front thwart. There might have been three inches of free-board but I was able to bale without trouble. The halyard was in reach and I was able to hoist sail, re-tension the downhaul and continue sailing.

I sailed for a while and then decided to go ashore, sponge out the remaining water and reef. After that I sailed another hour or so before calling it a day near sunset. Now here are the things which went wrong, could have gone worse or been better: (Glad for input from others about any of this).

Another time I should try entering the boat without first dousing the sail. It might work. In lower winds it might be the way to go. I did a previous successful test of my smaller sail (21 sq ft) with the sail left set up but that was with very little wind, so this is still an open question.

This lake is small so the wind does not have much fetch which kept the waves small. Bailing would have been much more difficult, maybe impossible, with high waves washing in on me. Heading up into the wind might help mitigate that.

The sheet got wrapped around my foot, and I felt a spar (the boom or yard) a time or two while getting around the stern to right the boat. Since I was wearing my PFD and was always in hand contact with the boat, the line was not a danger and was easy to remove by keeping calm. A lot of wild kicking might have made it tangle worse.

Immediately after I doused the sail, I should have replaced the halyard on its cleat so that it would not have been a matter of luck that I was able to reach it later. If I had been unable to reach it I would have had to unstep and restep the mast, to get at it, before being able to raise sail. It is also good that I had placed the halyard cleat low enough to be able to reach it from my position low in the water.

The sheet fouled the yard when I hoisted sail and the sail had to be reset several times in order to clear it.

The paddle stayed in place with its blade trapped between the hull and the front airbag. The required throwable device (type IV - seat cushion) stayed behind the rear thwart where it is always kept tied with a reef knot by a short length of line. I never found my half full Gatorade bottle. It should have floated. Those, I consider expendable.

At day's end I found that the mast step had swollen making it impossible to remove the mast. After numerous attempts I was ready to place the boat, with mast erect on top of the car and drive home watching for wires or terr limbs under fourteen feet. That will get worked a tad oversized with several coats of epoxy and varnished to seal it so that that doesn't happen again. It did finally let go. I might also have been able to have removed the four screws holding the step. There was probably a Philips head screwdriver in the car.

I had chosen the place and time for a short swim to shore when air and water temperatures were safely warm. Even so, I was surprised how cold the wind felt once I was back in the canoe. The effort (most of the effort was bailing) convinced me that once was enough for one day. I had proven to myself that my method was workable.

Paul
--
Mo Wetta - Mo Betta!
Larger sails, smaller boats!