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  1. #31
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    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    65
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    Default

    i always ran my NS14 outhauls to about the mid boom or slightly ahead. Not to clash with the mainsheet though.

    Do you know the dinghy racing trick of setting up cleats where the line is to be pulled from any angle.

    you have the line running to the cleat cleat - but after that you have a fairlead and a ball on the end of the line. You can grab the line after the fairlead from anywhere in the boat and pull to tighten. To release you grab the rope between the cleat and the fairlead.

    The ball is at the right distance for the maximum looseness of the adjustment. In this case it will be when the foot is at a 1:7 camber release the cleat completely. The ball hits the fairlead and that's it.

    The outhaul itself needs to be designed to hold the clew at a more or less even distance from the boom as it moves. We used to use a bit of stainless 1 x 19 wire with eyes either end and just screw to the boom with washers - a shackle would run along the wire.

    We had a trick of using a narrow and a wider shackle both with a 3/16 pin (5mm) and drill out the narrow shackle thread so both shackles would use the wider shackle pin. That way one would run on the wire and the other would attach the outhaul.

    There might be other ways of course, but this one was nice for the minimum amount of made up gear needed and it is lighter than a track or a stainless steel rod that some boats use.

    MIK

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  3. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    44
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    131

    Default Home Made GIS Sail

    Hi Everyone,

    I'm moving along in my GIS build, having just glassed up my foils, (Mucked up the rudder something fierce, but nothing some sanding wont fix.) and I just realized that if I'm actually going to finish up in 1 to 2 months I need a sail.

    I have decided to go out on a limb and make one myself. I am now in possesion of 15 yds. of 60" 5.5oz. Dacron, and 2 4oz. spools of v69 polyester thread. I recently sewed up a polytarp sail for my pdracer after a season of flying on tape alone, and my old sewing machine had no problems with up to 7 layers of tarp not counting tape. (70's vintage, cast iron, made in Japan for Sears) If it can't handle the Dacron I have a machine that I can borrow from a friend that will do it. Surprisingly, the sewing was really fun and even though I probably wont be able to make the finest sails for my boat, I'd like to keep with the spirit of the home build and do it myself. I've been through the forums, and plugged the edge rounding from this thread into the overall sail dimensions. I'm also going to use the newer reef selections that Joost suggested in this thread. I've attached a screen shot of the pattern so far.
    My plan was to lay out the panels horizontally and parallel to the foot with a 1" or so overlap and triple Zig Zag stitching. All edges will either be folded over and sewn, or possible taped with 3" offcuts of sailcloth, folded over the hem and stitched on.

    Does anyone out there have any experience with making fabric sails. I've watched a bunch of videos on YouTube, and don't think I'll have too much trouble, but any advice would be quite welcome. After making and using my pdracer sail, I am comfortable with edge rounding, and sewn patch reinforcements for all the stress areas, including reef points, but will I need any luff reinforcement (polyester webbing) to counter stretch, and what about battens or not? (the pdracer has none and works fine. If I do go with them, they will probably be strips of Oregon, how big?

    Now that it is warming up i have a real fire under me to press on and get on the water. Cant wait to hear thoughts!
    Thanks,
    Al

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    McAllen, Texas, USA
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    64
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    154

    Default

    You don't really want the seams parallel to the foot. That puts the leech on the bias which will stretch in an unwanted way.

    The grain should run parallel to or perpendicular to the leech.

  5. #34
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    Nov 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
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    131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dkirtley View Post
    You don't really want the seams parallel to the foot. That puts the leech on the bias which will stretch in an unwanted way.

    The grain should run parallel to or perpendicular to the leech.
    Thanks,
    That makes sense. I just made a sketch with the layout both parallel and perpendicular to the leach. Parallel is a lot less sewing, but I think it will be a lot simpler to use the material efficiently if i cut the sail perpendicular. It would look something like this:

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    McAllen, Texas, USA
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    64
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    Default

    Also remember that the nettles will be below the reef points. They do not take any strain. They only gather up the portion of sail not in use.

  7. #36
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    Nov 2008
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    Default

    Sorry,
    Not sure I follow you?

  8. #37
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    Dec 2008
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    McAllen, Texas, USA
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    Default

    Those little diamonds between the reef points. They are for either attaching a nettle (an attached string to tie up the sail to keep it from flopping around when reefed) or for a grommet to pass a string through for same.

    They go below the reef points. Not in line with them. They do not take any strain (you do not lace the sail through them. They do not have sufficient reinforcement and will rip out.

    They are only for managing the sail portion that is not in use when the sail is reefed.

    Quote Originally Posted by alzuger View Post
    Sorry,
    Not sure I follow you?

  9. #38
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    Nov 2008
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    Toronto, Canada
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    Default

    Ok,
    So the reef is held in by tying only the reinforced grommets at the leach and the luff, and they should be a few inches higher than the line of reef nettles. In essence the reefed sail is "loose footed" and the reef nettles just tie up the excess sail so it doesn't flap all day in the breeze.
    At least that's how I am understanding it. I feel like I am learning something now. Thanks!

    -I'll try to revise the drawing later tonight to show the reinforcement patches and placement of other grommets.

  10. #39
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    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
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    Default

    Intermediate reefing positions it really is to tidy the sail up rather than have any other function.

    The intermediate holes only need to be a few and you thread a piece of shock cord (bungee) spirally around the lot.

    Most of the time you dont even need the intervening ones - if you catch the ends of the sail with your reef it will be tidy enough. Most raceboats just leave it loose unless the wind and waves are getting really big and they are a long way from home.

    Best wishes
    Michael

  11. #40
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    Nov 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
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    Default

    So that would explain why my reef grommets were tearing out of the middle of the sail last year when I went out reefed in a good blow. I had the nettles tied down tight thinking that they were supposed to be of holding the foot of the sail in place.

    So, I'll be OK if I eliminate a half or so of the reef nettle points shown in the above drawings and reinforce the leech and luff grommets as shown in the PDRacer lug sail supplement?

    Thanks for all of the advice everyone, I don't have a sailing background and I'm still working out the nuts and bolts of all of these details.

    Also, any comments on to batten or not to batten? If I do them I'm thinking homemade fir battens or something similar. But if it is all the same, maybe it is better to reef early and not worry about it.

    Cheers,
    Al

  12. #41
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    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    Hi Al,

    I have found battens useful to reduce the power in the sail for long trips etc. But for local sailing where I want power I leave them out.

    It might vary with different sail cuts, but I do suggest that ppl try with and without battens to see the range of possibilities.

    I will send you a sail design I worked out for the goat.

    Best wishes
    MIK

  13. #42
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    Nov 2008
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    Toronto, Canada
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    Default

    Thanks MIK!
    That would be great.
    -Al

  14. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    germany
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Hi Al,

    I have found battens useful to reduce the power in the sail for long trips etc. But for local sailing where I want power I leave them out.

    It might vary with different sail cuts, but I do suggest that ppl try with and without battens to see the range of possibilities.

    I will send you a sail design I worked out for the goat.

    Best wishes
    MIK
    Hi Al,

    me thinks that MIK refers to full length battens.They flatten the sail if not compressed from a rounded luff and leech, which is unusual but possible in lugsails. But they interfere with the mast if the sail is on the windward side.
    Or you can use preformed battens. Same downside with the mast. Keyhavenpotterer had the idea to sew his sails for his Raid 41 that way, but I don't remember whether he told the results.
    But : you can do leech battens to support a rounded leech. They allow more area of the sail and therefore a tad more power.
    Michael Mcnamara did his sails that way.

    Other thought to do with reefing:

    If in a breeze the reefed sail refers only to the grommets at luff and leech, and the dept of the sail should stay controlled and not increase with a puff, then the boom must be stiff enough, which way of sorts out a bending boom for the unreefed sail.

    If the boom is done bending, then the sailfoot is attached to the boom to control the dept of the lower part of the sail. While reefing the line of the reefing grommets represent the new foot of the sail, and must run with the right footround and be reinforced adequate to cope with the loads.

    Best wishes from Bonn - Jörn

  15. #44
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    Nov 2008
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    Toronto, Canada
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    Thanks Jorn,
    I've been reading for a while about boats and boat design, and I'm starting to get a reasonable understanding of hull shape and design. Sails however, and their aerodynamics are a black art that i am just starting to wrap my head around. Plus, lacking a great deal of practical experience i'm leaning towards keeping it as simple and tried and true as possible. I'll put in some batten pockets, for some homemade wooden battens. Here is an updated pic of the current plan. I dont have the batten pockets in yet, but they will go just above the reef nettles. (1 1/2" wide?) The light gray sketch overlayed is how the sailcloth will be laid out and seamed.

  16. #45
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    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
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    Default

    Howdy Al,

    Did you get the sail schematic I sent? The seams in the sail have to be perpendicular to the leach - the back edge of the sail. You want one of the thread lines on the sail - the weft or warp perpendicular to this highly loaded edge.

    There are some other things you can do too with the patching to make sure there is some cloth similarly supporting the luff and the foot by adding patches like the PDR sail. Those patches for the goat need to have their threadlines perpendicular to the edge for the doubling of the luff and foot too so as to reduce stretch.

    MIK

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