Thread: Sailing canoe cruise across the Baltic Sea to the Bornholm Island - a crazy idea.

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Fenger had warm water - it makes a lot of difference.

Yes, I know! At Polish Baltic beaches I've often observed circa 10 degree of Celsius in the middle of the summer... And above 20 degree also.

I know you will take care if you do it.

Yes - be sure that I'll be careful. A delayed start to the year 2012 - I look forward to assist from bigger boat.

Originally Posted by robhosailor

done few years ago by one Polish guy and Optimist dinghy class:
Onet.pl - Gdzie na

video:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3Wiz4CIGMk"]YouTube - Optimistem na Bornholm[/ame]

This guy is Marcin Siwek... and his route is really long and can be difficult (impossible) for other conditions than those that had.

Originally Posted by callsign222

The bottom's of amas are set higher than the bottom of the canoe, so you can get your heel on. It won't necessarily keep it flat. Gary Dierking's popular and long-distance-race-successful Wa'apa is a flat bottom sailing canoe.

Duckworks Boatbuilders Supply

About outriggers for Beth again:
Discuss about it was on this forum. For special solution (open waters use) I can use outriggers similar to Solway Dory solutions:







Possibility of capsize will be reduced, but possibility of reversion from up side down position will be more difficult than previously...
Am I right??? Question especially to Brian P. keyhavenpotter.

Howdy Robert,

The real planning of this trip and anything a bit exciting is how you deal with contingencies.

Basically, how do you deal with a worst case scenario.

This is the thing that sets apart the "cranks" from the people who do big and interesting things.

Back in the days of a freer sailing scene the Singlehanded Transatlantic Race allowed almost anything to compete. From Alain Colas in his 240ft "Club Mediterranee" to two guys sailing C class cats.

Colas failed one type of contingency test when he had to stop for repairs and couldn't rehoist the three mainsails again - so had to get help. If there was a real situation of hurting himself or a serious breakage I am sure both Colas and his insurers had good contingency plans in place to save the skipper or save the boat.

The C-class cat guys showed their ability to deal with contingencies by being able to right their boats by themselves by setting up an underdeck bipod, hanging a big bag under and pumping it full of water. This worked in perfectly still water - but most thought that there was little chance of them being able to pull it off at sea. Both those boats failed structurally and the sailors were picked up with some luck.

It is not about the gear you have, it is not about ideas for repairing the boat, though those have to be covered - it comes down to worst case scenario and how to deal with it.

In a way you are lucky because the worst case scenarios are quite limited.

Boat broken in a terminal way or you can't sail it because of conditions
You hurt yourself badly
You get separated from the boat

Planning to avoid these things are one part, however all are resolved if you have a good plan to take care of yourself independent of the boat. If you end up floating in the middle of the water by yourself, what will you do and are you prepared to take the risks of that.

It is actually a part of regular sailing that experienced sailors are able to weigh up. When up in Queensland one time I sailed singlehanded out onto the ocean to see the Etchell class worlds. Wind was light/moderate, onshore, completely clear skies, very warm water, no strong wind forecasts. If something went wrong there were other boats around. If any of these had been missing, I probably would not have gone out there in the Goat.

So if you have a plan to deal with ending up floating in the middle boatless and dealing with the consequences from paying potential costs through to possible public humiliation (no matter how well planned the trip was) then that's OK.

The outriggers COULD help you as a lot of gear would, but they don't answer the worst case so might be unnecessary complication.

I think the best answer is to find someone who is sailing over there in a bigger boat and arrange to go at the same time. The contingency of being picked up is covered well enough I think then. The contingency then becomes keeping the boats in contact with each other. In the right conditions BETH could be faster than a regular yacht and in stronger upwind conditions the bigger yacht could easily sail away from BETH (unless you find a wharram to sail with - then you might outperform them to windward and they might match downwind! Bad idea - Beth will outpoint them). Also a capsize making BETH hard to spot. - so that depends on visibility and wave height and a clear agreement to make joint decisions and both stick to your part.

Last year we were starting to think about sailing three OzRacers down the part of the Coast of Queensland for about 120 miles - to be done in three days. The first part was open water, but most of it was within Moreton Bay. We had a larger boat that was able to come down with us and were prepared to abandon the OzRacers if continuing was impossible.

Lovely warm water, but my chaos of last year didn't really allow for it to happen.

Best wishes
MIK

Michael!

Thank you very much! It's very helpful for me!

I have promised escort a larger boat for the summer 2012. I hope that it will be feasible.

Yes - essential is:"Basically, how do you deal with a worst case scenario."

Worst can be as you wrote:"Boat broken in a terminal way or you can't sail it because of conditions
You hurt yourself badly
You get separated from the boat"

I thought that the outriggers will help me maintain the proper position when a momentary fall asleep, or a similar loss of consciousness - 24 hours at sea, or more.
Really- I thought that the outriggers do not have to be the best idea - Beth is a narrow boat, so can easily be overturned, but also easy get it back to the right position.

***
Probably next summer holidays (2011) I will spent on training at wider water - Gulf of Puck, or something like that... (and it will be time for preparations - BETH and me - for planned trip)...

That's great Robert,

Any piece of equipment can be useful, but focus on the big problems first and then move to the next ones. At some point there is nothing important left on the list.

Then if the conditions on the day match your plan you are ready.

Also assume a worst case average speed for your planning. I think 4 knots is probably reasonable for planning. You might be much faster than that and it may even depend on you reefing to keep the speed down to match the other boat. In other conditions they might have to slow down for you.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Also assume a worst case average speed for your planning. I think 4 knots is probably reasonable for planning. You might be much faster than that and it may even depend on you reefing to keep the speed down to match the other boat. In other conditions they might have to slow down for you.

That's very interesting! I have made the assumption that the average speed is 2.5 knots, so it's time to reach the goal will be approximately 24 hours (or a bit more...).
Your assumption of an average speed of 4 knots mean shorten the crossing route for about 15 hours (it is a large difference).

Which is closer to reality? It remains to be seen!
In my opinion: waves (and wind max 3) will cause some delays. Stronger (F 4) winds will generate larger waves, causing more delay (and danger).

Your lower speed is even better!

MIK

Some thoughts on your big trip:

As far as a worst-case scenario goes, (in the water, boat blown away or swamped, you can’t right it or climb on board), a good dry suit or at least wet suit would give you a lot more time. Waterproof VHF Marine radio, EPIRB (the new kind that transmits GPS position), cell phone in waterproof pouch, waterproof strobe and flashlight would all be good to have in your lifejacket pockets.

As far as staying out of trouble, my main thoughts would be doing some serious training, and if you add equipment or systems to help, make sure you’ve trialled them and know they work in difficult conditions, night time included.

You’ll have to sail for a long time, so practice that, and work up to being able to do 10 hours straight in challenging conditions.

You’ll have to sail through a night at the beginning and or end of the trip, so practice that, work up to having done a night right through along the coast on a couple of occasions.

You’ll find issues that need solving including eating, drinking and peeing while keeping control of the boat and ideally without having to take your wet or dry suit right off.

I’d look at how you can get a rest hove to even in difficult conditions. (Just mizzen and or a sea anchor you can quickly deploy and retrieve from the cockpit?) Again anything should be trialled in worse conditions than you anticipate on the real trip.

Being able to paddle the boat efficiently would also be helpful. With a slightly longer than normal double kayak paddle that stores in two pieces you should be able to do 3 – 3.5 knots for quite a time. It would be worth putting in extra cables from your tiller to foot pedals so you can steer with your feet while paddling.

With all this, you’ve got some good additional options. If you set off in light conditions and get becalmed or have light winds right on the nose, you can drop the rig and still make 3.5 knots directly towards your destination. You could be past halfway by sunrise if you paddle all night and then hopefully get some breeze to get the rest of the way.

Also with foot operated rudder and paddle you can make 6 or 7 knots running directly downwind with bare poles or a 1 metre square spinnaker up the front. This can be done in relative comfort in up to about 40 knots, though it gets more challenging as the seas get bigger and start breaking. The foot-operated rudder lets you sit low in the boat for stability when running downwind and you have the paddle to help with the odd bracing stroke as you surf down the waves.

Look at how to get back into the boat if you do capsize and swamp – extra buoyancy (closed cell foam or inflated bags along the sides under the cockpit rim) might keep it more stable if swamped. A temporary outrigger can help – basically a coupe of straps close to the gunwales close to the cockpit rear so you can fix a double paddle across the boat at that point, then a slab of closed cell foam that bungees over the paddle blade so it stays afloat. A sling that gives you a foot loop can help, though practice at the agility to climb back in really quickly and keep the boat balanced throughout is more important. I’d be inclined to have a leash from the boat to myself at all times – I have a whitewater kayaking lifejacket that has an extra strap on a buckle that is very strong but can release very quickly if necessary.

If you’re going with close support from a bigger boat, make sure you have systems in place to stay in place, communicate, let them know you want help and so they can find you/ don’t lose touch with you in the dark. Look at whether and under what conditions they can (and cannot) rescue your boat as well/ how you can handle that if you do need assistance.

An Olympic medallist Laser sailor sailed his Laser across Bass Strait (Tasmania to Australian mainland) a while ago, he had a support boat, but set off in quite strong winds from the right direction to ensure a fast trip. It would be interesting to see what systems they had in place to stay in touch and communicate if necessary.

I’d be inclined to pick the lighter end of conditions for your trip and plan on maintaining a good average speed by paddling some of it if necessary.

All the best,

Ian

If you can be certain of keeping in contact with the support boat and can keep dry and warm and regard Yuan Fen as disposable (probably what the Laser sailor did) then you can sail with very little extra gear.

The idea of practicing is a very good one. I think you have quite a bit of night sailing experience in bigger boats, but might need to see what happens in a small boat.

Close one eye whenever you put a torch on!

MIK

Dear Ian and MIK,

I am thinking of all the necessary safety aspects.
But the most tempting me to do it without the electronics and without the support of a large boat.
The planned route by me was already traveled by the small boats (including canoes were) without assistance. Of course - I do not know, can I decide on it.

***
I haven't a big experience in night sailing bigger and small boats at sea: one time on open ballasted shaloop as a helmsman by most of time of that trip by Gulf of Puck (Puck-Hel-Puck):


...and adventurous* night cruise on a small (14 ft) beach catamaran (photos below) on the protected part of Gulf of Puck (Zatoka Pucka).




These were two great experiences

___
*) in opposition to the principles of safety and good seamanship ...

Lots of good advice above .
Particularly try out and practice EVERYTHING that you will RELY on. (Ive learnt that one the hard way.)
Ive done some sea kayak touring so I have some paddlers comments.
If being able to paddle the boat is part of your contingency plan, (eg rig broken and/or unmanageable ditch it and start paddling.) Do set up comfortable seating/ back support and foot operated rudder arrangement and give it a good trial. For me the type of paddling you might resort to would be best done with a "sea paddle". The smaller blade area is less strenuous if you are using a long shaft for clearance. A (strong) paddle also gives you "paddle float self rescue" options that Ian H describes, which MUST be practiced to be of any use. The combination of a double paddle in your hands and a "hands free" bailing pump also gives you the best chance of staying upright while emptying a flooded boat after re-entry. Minimising the floodable volume is another principle of kayak seaworthiness.
I encourage to all those who go "out there" small boat adventuring get a copy of "Deep Trouble" by Matt Broze (avail from seakayaker magazine online). It has helped me think about what can go wrong and surviving in very small boats by analysing critical kayaking incidents.
Wayne from Fremantle
(preparing to sail our "Billy Goat" over the 20km Rottnest Channel next month)

"A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, he said, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. But we do be afraid of the sea, and we do only be drownded now and again." By John Millington Synge

Originally Posted by wayne poulsen

Lots of good advice above .

Yes! Thank you for advice.

I'll take everything into consideration.

Many small boats have the ability for the sailor to sit inboard for long periods of time. I would think that this is quite different for Beth which must be sailed while sitting on the gunwale.

Maybe sail all night around your local lakes to find out if your body can take take sitting on the rail and being active for such long periods.

Good physical training for your trip might come from something quite simple like an exercise ball, which you can use as a chair to help strengthen your back and abdomen muscles.

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