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  1. #31
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    Mar 2010
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    Another very important thing is to have a viable plan A or B for returning if the weather doesn't cooperate for sailing back. Either have boat and you returning on the ferry as plan A or as an easily sorted and already budgeted plan B.

    It's easier to sort out/ have your window of opportunity for going lined up, if it runs out without suitable weather coming along, you just don't go.

    But, if you get there and are planning to come back the same way, it's easy to be under a lot more pressure to put to sea as you've used up much of your available time and alternative ways of coming back such as putting the boat on the ferry/freighting it/storing it there are maybe more expensive and inconvenient.

    Extra pressure to put to sea = more chance of getting the decision wrong.

    Ian

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  3. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Poland
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Many small boats have the ability for the sailor to sit inboard for long periods of time. I would think that this is quite different for Beth which must be sailed while sitting on the gunwale.
    Bruce,
    You are right - smooth and narrow hull of Beth and proportionally large sail area require the skipper to force a constant activity during the whole trip - if wind Force 2 and more.



    Light air - sitting on the edge of coaming... or kneel inside the cockpit


    Gust circa Force 4 with one reef - i need hiking and sit on a gunwale...


    To remedy some... I'm going to use outriggers - They let me rest a bit, represent a kind of safety net.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Maybe sail all night around your local lakes to find out if your body can take take sitting on the rail and being active for such long periods.
    I can do it at sea only, because night sailing small boats on our lakes is prohibited. I need to install navigation lights and sail (training) the seas.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Good physical training for your trip might come from something quite simple like an exercise ball, which you can use as a chair to help strengthen your back and abdomen muscles.
    Ha ha! Fine device indeed
    You are right - it requires fitness and training... and 24 hours at sea, that's different than a few hours on the lake daysailing. Believe me, I'm aware of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    It's easier to sort out/ have your window of opportunity for going lined up, if it runs out without suitable weather coming along, you just don't go.
    /.../
    Extra pressure to put to sea = more chance of getting the decision wrong.
    Ian,
    Essential is: Do not start if the weather is uncertain.

    Weather must be for a stable high barometric pressure to the south of the basin - something like that, Marcin Siwek had, who sailed the Optimist Dinghy in 2007 and did a much longer route than I plan to do. Shorter distance reduces the risk of bad weather, the meeting.

    If the forecast gives a shadow of uncertainty - will not start up!
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  4. #33
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    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by robhosailor View Post

    Light air - sitting on the edge of coaming... or kneel inside the cockpit


    Gust circa Force 4 with one reef - i need hiking and sit on a gunwale...


    To remedy some... I'm going to use outriggers - They let me rest a bit, represent a kind of safety net.
    You can see how variable wind affects the dynamic behavior of the Beth:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH7XjW4mNwg"]YouTube - Sailing Canoe BETH YuanFen - Dziekanowskie Lake (Poland)[/ame]


    Kneel when tacking and gybeing, and running and sailing with light air conditions:




    and hiking in gusts (circa Force 4 - one reef on mainsail taken)





    And Solway Dory sailing canoe (cat yawl/cat ketch riggged) with double outriggers:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR8-v5aIRHg"]YouTube - Wooden Sailing Canoe, Bermudan Ketch Rig[/ame]
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  5. #34
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    Oct 2007
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    Quick sketch of my Beth YuanFen with safety amas:



    On the rear iako you can see a bench for skipper also.
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  6. #35
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    Jun 2009
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    New Hampshire
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    Quote Originally Posted by robhosailor View Post

    To remedy some... I'm going to use outriggers - They let me rest a bit, represent a kind of safety net.
    HUH! Who woulda thunk it!?

  7. #36
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    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    HUH! Who woulda thunk it!?
    Ha ha! I remember your suggestions and our discuss:

    What about adding an ama to the Beth, so you can get into the cockpit and relax a little bit but still chug along?
    I prefer Beth without ama - Beth has a flat bottom and she can pounding if no heeling.

    Outrigger canoes and proas have "V" or "U" hull's shapes usually.
    The bottom's of amas are set higher than the bottom of the canoe, so you can get your heel on. It won't necessarily keep it flat. Gary Dierking's popular and long-distance-race-successful Wa'apa is a flat bottom sailing canoe.
    Just right, but Beth's hull is a wider flat bottomed still (0.83 m)
    And I remember what MIK said:
    The outriggers COULD help you as a lot of gear would, but they don't answer the worst case so might be unnecessary complication.
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  8. #37
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    Jun 2009
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    New Hampshire
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    HA!

    Good drawing, looking forward to seeing the end result! The outriggers are a great idea, you can get into the cockpit and stretch out a bit if you need to. I know I couldn't sit on the side of my Laser for 18 hours. I'd go nuts!

  9. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Queenstown New Zealand
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    Yes, I'm interested to see how Beth goes with outriggers.

    One issue may be the strength of your mast - add a lot more stability and the potential maximum forces on the mast and mast step/partner go up accordingly, you may need to go to a larger diameter (hollow?) mast or add a few layers of glass cloth to the bottom metre and a half of the mast to beef it up a bit. Perhaps Mik can comment on what may be needed.

    Richard Harvey (Norfolk, UK) has a spare carbon mast that might be long enough - he ordered one for his GIS but it arrived with the tip damaged, he now has another one, but still has the one with the damaged tip.

    I'd though a while back that a raid-for-one boat could be Beth with Mik's outriggers on it, so interesting to see how it works. How did the fellow with a completed set of outriggers on a Eureka go, was he putting a sail rig on it or just motoring?

    Ian

  10. #39
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    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    Yes, I'm interested to see how Beth goes with outriggers.
    Me too

    One issue may be the strength of your mast - add a lot more stability and the potential maximum forces on the mast and mast step/partner go up accordingly, you may need to go to a larger diameter (hollow?) mast or add a few layers of glass cloth to the bottom metre and a half of the mast to beef it up a bit. Perhaps Mik can comment on what may be needed.
    T think, it depends on how kind of outriggers will:
    big amas on waterline can increase boat's stability to much and then they can cause failure of the mast.

    Low displacement safety amas, raised above waterline (see Solway Dory photos on previous page and video above ) - they can work only in main hull heeled than load on mainmast not to heavy. They can also help the stability of a canoe when restored to the right position after capsizing. I don't know Beth's stability in such conditions -
    sea rough waves and canoe swamped when restored after capsizing.
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  11. #40
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    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    I would say get more time up on BETH without outriggers including getting the sails up and down and reefing on the water.

    The original idea of Beth is why she is the way she is. I would be tempted to think that once you add outriggers it is not BETH any more but a very different concept.

    Best wishes
    MIK

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    I would say get more time up on BETH without outriggers including getting the sails up and down and reefing on the water.

    The original idea of Beth is why she is the way she is. I would be tempted to think that once you add outriggers it is not BETH any more but a very different concept.
    MIK,

    I can see your position, because I'm a designer too: violin is a violin and piano is a piano, they are excellent as they are, and mixing them is not good idea. But I designed many interiors, which the owners and users changed their purpose and part of design. I did not like it, but soon I came to the conclusion that each design life of its own. The key for me was that they were pleased with them.

    So - I suppose you never designed your beautiful and fantastic sailing canoe BETH for extended cruising and unprotected waters.
    But I have this boat only and I want to use her for my sea trip. Without larger boat assist and without electronics instruments. A 24 hours at sea (possible that a shorter, but also possible that more). So, "safety amas" - rised above a waterline, working if canoe heeled only - I think, they are the only kind of my security - especially at night and moments of tiredness and asleep.

    ***
    And... tell to the truth tempting me to do it without amas too, but I'm not extreme sailor
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  13. #42
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    Jul 2005
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    Hi Robert,

    Often I write for a much broader readership than just this one discussion. One thing I don't want is a whole heap of enquiries about how to fit outriggers to Beth. As a general concept it is a flawed one.
    Those interested can read why in the blue writing at the bottom of the original BETH page.
    Beth Sailing Canoe - Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans
    (I think most of the regulars know about it very well)

    There is a bit more flexibility for a single instance for a single purpose. Such as yours Robert. But I will still push a little to see if the standard boat with sensible precautions is enough.

    At the moment I am having a discussion with the Loire group because someone is suggesting that the Quick Canoe bottoms be made of half inch ply - so it won't get holes - but so far we have no terminal holes in hulls the standard thickness. It is sort of a human thing to look at a problem and keep adding things.

    Be aware though that if the wind does really howl in - or you get fast sailing conditions the outriggers may put a lot of extra load on the spars and possibly some of the other gear - as you have already mentioned. This is a result of increasing the stability if the outriggers are large - whatever volume they are it is like having a person of that weight out with his or her navel at the ama distance from the hull.

    Simple low volume ones like the video that Brian put up would put a lot less load and also you could get rid of them if they cause trouble. I am not discounting larger ones either for this single purpose but everything has plusses and minuses.

    Best wishes

    MIK

  14. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Texas
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    We are becoming more familiar with our GIS in heavy weather sailing. Each time out we learn a little more. One of the interesting things we have learned is that there is one spot out in our Galveston Bay that can kick some really big waves when we have an outgoing tide against the incoming sea breeze. It's a very uncomfortable place to sail, confused seas, short steep chop and a wind funnel between two land masses.

    This is where we will have a controlled capsize test. We plan to load our GIS with a week’s worth of camping gear, food and repair parts then go roll the boat over and see what happens. We will have a crash boat out there to help us if we cannot recover the boat and any gear that floats away.

    A little bit further away is the entrance to our bay. Typical weather conditions build large evenly spaced swells that will be great for surfing. It may be an extra hour of driving but the practice will help my daughter and me on the next Texas 200.

    So look around your sailing grounds and see if a short drive can take you to different sailing conditions you might expect on your crossing.

    I am lucky to sail in very warm summer waters, but learn how long you can survive in the water temperature you plan to sail. My last trip out with my kids, we had 53F water (12C). My mental calculation of my sons weight, age, clothing type and physical conditioning gave me about half an hour to recover from a capsize and return to shore before major hypothermia set in.

    On my long solo rows and sails my limit was based on my naps and nutrition. Learn how to nap/sleep/eat on your Beth.

    Understanding your limits can make a very successful trip.
    It sound like a great adventure. Enjoy it!

  15. #44
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    Jul 2005
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    Howdy John,

    Have you done any smooth water capsizes (with wind!) with gear?

    MIK

  16. #45
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    Oct 2007
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    Thank you MIK,

    Tell to the truth I know by heart this text in blue from your website .

    Really - tempting me to use BETH without outriggers at unprotected sea. I'm not going to go out to sea in uncertain weather, but I have more sure that the boat will not capsize in the night. Rather, I expect a night with no wind drift, but water 53F = 12 C is probable... Increasing the strength of the wind, it is probable also. I'm not affraid dangerously increase the load on the mast - reefing is my second nature

    Thank you John,

    I intend to try capsizes and returns to its original position at Gulf of Gdansk in various (different) conditions on summer 2011 - standard BETH (without outriggers), especially in order to learn its characteristics and capabilities (and my own: also).

    So - All aspects will be carefully analyzed.
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


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