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  1. #46
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    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    Good Man!

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  3. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Texas
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    319

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Howdy John,

    Have you done any smooth water capsizes (with wind!) with gear?

    MIK
    We have only capsized one time, at the dock on the day we first launched. My wife’s cell phone camera caught the aftermath of the event. Here I am bailing.



    We have not done a smooth water capsize fully loaded with gear. We sail off a lee shore where we launch, so doing this near the parks swimming beach where we can self rescue ourselves and the boat sounds like a good idea

  4. #48
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    UK
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    848

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    Here's a closer picture of my short, high carry, outriggers.





    The plank that carries the outriggers is about 8' and is a single piece of ash, steam bent to give the upward lift at the end. Notice how far forward it is placed.

    They work great. Hardly ever in the water.

    Brian

  5. #49
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Poland
    Age
    67
    Posts
    805

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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter View Post
    Here's a closer picture of my short, high carry, outriggers.
    /.../
    The plank that carries the outriggers is about 8' and is a single piece of ash, steam bent to give the upward lift at the end. Notice how far forward it is placed.

    They work great. Hardly ever in the water.
    Thank you Brian for these photos. I really like them.

    I'm very inerested - how displacement each of these floats (amas).

    I can't to use the same solution:
    1. BETH's deck has a camber
    2. I can't access into flotation chamber placed in front of the centreboard case
    3. I have no possibilities in steam technology.

    So I need to use different solution:
    1. Crossbeams (iakos) wood laminated or box (shown in G.Dierking's book or on MIK's website*) - banana shape, but corns raised.
    2. Lashing to special support cleats glued and bolted to deck, gunwale/sheerclamp, carling/coaming in front part of the cockpit area (knee no 1).

    But... I look carefully at the plans of BETH ...

    There are no simple and easy possibilities to attach the outriggers as far forward similar to your Shearwater as like. But the outriggers in the area of the cockpit will not work properly - so they can cause of capsizing by the oblique (skew) axis of rotation (bow of the hull - bow of the float / ama) on speed and heel ... and ... MIK is right - BETH with outriggers can not be good idea...

    ___
    *)
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  6. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Poland
    Age
    67
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    805

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    Quote Originally Posted by robhosailor View Post
    So I need to use different solution:
    1. Crossbeams (iakos) wood laminated or box (shown in G.Dierking's book or on MIK's website*) - banana shape, but corns raised.
    2. Lashing to special support cleats glued and bolted to deck, gunwale/sheerclamp, carling/coaming in front part of the cockpit area (knee no 1).

    But... I look carefully at the plans of BETH ...

    There are no simple and easy possibilities to attach the outriggers as far forward similar to your Shearwater as like. But the outriggers in the area of the cockpit will not work properly - so they can cause of capsizing by the oblique (skew) axis of rotation (bow of the hull - bow of the float / ama) on speed and heel ... and ... MIK is right - BETH with outriggers can not be good idea...
    I've just sketched setting (position) of crossbeams and amas on BETH (attachement)
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  7. #51
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    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    65
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    John,

    Sensible to do a smoothish water capsize first. Some wind helps a lot in the recovery.

    MIK

  8. #52
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    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    Remember too that if you get capsized even small floats might make it very difficult to right the boat. Maybe lashing attachments and a good knife.

    They might make a sideways capsize much less possible, but won't prevent a high speed "tripping" type capsize and could contribute to that possibility - particularly with waves.

    I really think (opinion only) the best bet is to use the standard boat but make it as sure as you can that
    1/ the weather is sympathetic
    2/ there is a companion boat and it has the means to find you (not the boat necessarily) if you lose contact - eg SPOT device.
    3/ Real emergency backup - personal epirb - I wouldn't get a boat epirb because of the small chance you might become separated (or a personal epirb AND a boat epirb - you can probably borrow both).
    4/ Being prepared to abandon the boat if the going gets impossible
    5/ Being very familiar with capsize/bailing, reefing afloat, raising and dropping sail afloat even in extreme conditions - I've done all of this in 30 knot plus winds and as long as the boat is not full of water it can be done OK - the advantage of a mizzen - but i haven't done it at sea at night!!! Practice Practice!

    My feeling is that the planning for extra "bits" are a misperception about where the safety really lies.

    Even in a standard BETH the risks are possibly in the 5% range if the wind is below 15 knots - this is the chance of something breaking (the boat will have done enough sailing to show weak points) or some sort of unrecoverable handling situation - the chances of it are reduced with the points above. The boat can keep going forever in such conditions.

    My feeling is that the outriggers could be a potential liability - unless you sail with them in all conditions to get ready as in the points above.

    The high volume outriggers (my design) are like having a 150lb person on a leaning plank over a metre from the side of the boat. A trapeze really - actually trapeze is better because it supports the mast. They are very likely to overstress the mast unless the wind is under 10 knots (very roughly - I know the risk would start to be considerable over 15 knots).

    The low volume ones are likely to be a tripping hazard in one set of the conditions where you need to use them - rough water, high speed sailing - but would be great if you needed to stop and have a rest in a choppy sea and not much wind.

    Beth does "jill along" (low speed forward and sideways drift) with the main eased completely or dropped, the mizzen eased and the rudder a-lee - centreboard fully down. But you need to do it in different conditions to see how the boat goes.

    Remember too that both Lasers and windsurfers have made these sorts of crossings following the points I have listed above. If they need a real rest I guess the windsurfer would sit on the board and a Laser might capsize and sit on the upturned hull for a rest - then right and continue. Though if you need a rest because of tough sailing conditions it probably means you are very close to needing to abandon the boat - I've never found a good way to rest in a very small boat in the way that you can recover your strength very well - maybe enough for a small sail into shore, but not enough for a continued marathon effort.

    MIK

  9. #53
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    Oct 2007
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    Poland
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Remember too/.../
    Thank you Michael!!!
    You are right!!!

    I just abandon thoughts of outriggers!
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  10. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    319

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    Quote Originally Posted by robhosailor View Post
    Thank you Michael!!!
    You are right!!!

    I just abandon thoughts of outriggers!

    A small fact from the Texas 200, all the boats designed as single hull vessels and equipped with aftermarket outriggers failed to finish. There where both examples of low buoyancy amas while others were much higher. I know 1 retired due to heat stroke and 2 retired due to beam failures.

  11. #55
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Poland
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    67
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    805

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    Quote Originally Posted by john goodman View Post
    A small fact from the Texas 200, all the boats designed as single hull vessels and equipped with aftermarket outriggers failed to finish. There where both examples of low buoyancy amas while others were much higher. I know 1 retired due to heat stroke and 2 retired due to beam failures.
    Thank you John for info Outrigger abandoned!
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  12. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    960

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    John

    It will be interesting to see what secured gear does in helping with the capsize recovery by taking up space in the hull, which will decrease the amount of water that comes into the boat on the way up.

    I have found that in "heavier" seas (not smooth) when by myself and no gear the boat wallows drunkenly and threatens to go back over. Obviously, dropping the rig is necessary. Your mizzen might help minimize this since you won't necessarily swing parallel to the swells if it's sheeted. Getting into the aft portion of the boat and keeping your C.G. low will help, but make sure water isn't coming through the tiller cut-away behind you. After the first few bails, the boat already responds much better.

    Also, one day there were two of us, but no gear, and we were taking water into the hull over the top of the daggerboard trunk-- not an envious position to be in. I had a wetsuit on and jumped overboard to stabilize the boat from windward and get the top of the trunk above the waterline while my friend bailed her out.

    I have not capsized when loaded with gear, primarily because the boat is stable already, and I'm sailing much more conservatively. However, my hope is that with my two watertight gear buckets lashed under the seats, it will displace enough water to aid in recovery and more importantly, bailing out.

    Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this works out.

  13. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Poland
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    A photo (sorry for a mastodont size! I can't to resize it) of low tech double outriggers canoe resting in Thailand - floats made from bamboo - they have high slenderness ratio and they makes very little possibility a stumbling the waves, but crossbeams are better spaced than is possible to easily do on BETH without major alterations (Such wide spacing would require setting them outside cockpit and bulkheads) ...

    http://mi9.com/uploads/landscape/424...1050_74033.jpg
    Last edited by robhosailor; 28th January 2011 at 07:24 AM. Reason: Mastodont photo replaced by link
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  14. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Poland
    Age
    67
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    HURRRAAAAA!!!

    Polish kayaker Aleksander "Olo" Doba just crossed Atlantic Ocean from Africa to the South America - Brasil!!!


    Aleksanderdoba.pl - Transatlantic kayak expedition

    Filmy
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  15. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Queenstown New Zealand
    Posts
    382

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    Quote Originally Posted by robhosailor View Post
    HURRRAAAAA!!!

    Polish kayaker Aleksander "Olo" Doba just crossed Atlantic Ocean from Africa to the South America - Brasil!!!
    Interesting boat he used - and how he made it self righting without getting in the way of paddling.

    http://aleksanderdoba.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=101&Itemid=95〈=en#

    I wonder if he followed his predecessor's (Hannes Lindemann) example and ballasted his boat with beer - apparently Lindemann took enough in his Klepper for a bottle a day on his Atlantic crossing in 1956 - 72 days so 72 bottles of beer.

    Maybe Mik can comment - would a couple of dozen beer bottles in the bottom of Beth help with the stability on an open water trip, or could that tube structure be added to Beth? Make it out of swim noodles and then add a layer or two of fibreglass...

    Ian

  16. #60
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    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    Maybe Mik can comment - would a couple of dozen beer bottles in the bottom of Beth help with the stability on an open water trip?
    Ha ha! I'm really interested in it!
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


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