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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    The glass weight also depends on the boat and the plywood thickness.

    6mm is just about right for the Goat. It is pretty tough for a lighter simpler (and I guess slower) boat like the QC Electric.

    MIK
    Is it correct for me to assume that the quick canoe with outriggers and sail will experience similar or less stresses the the QC Electric? I am happy to use the lighter 4oz tape if you approve.

    Quote Originally Posted by engblom View Post
    Without testing empirically, it is even difficult to estimate how much more weight a cloth will add. It should be obvious that it is not just the weight of the cloth that is added, but also more epoxy is used. The cloth will also suck up epoxy and the epoxy layer becomes ticker and heavier.
    Its funny when i first decided to build a plywood boat, i had planned on filleting and taping the inside and glassing the entire outside. But after reading Mik's posts on the subject, my attitude has completely changed. I want to get as light as possible without risking failure during normal use (not doing 6 foot drops off weirs).

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  3. #17
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    It will have more stresses ... particularly twisting stresses and local stresses trying to push the hull sides sideways - it's not too bad because the setup means the leeway forces at the partner - which is part of the main crossbeam is counteracted by the hulls at the end of the same crossbeam.

    The only real extra stress is the one trying to push the gunwale level one way while the mast step tries to push it the other. I think the length of the chine (which takes that load) means the load is distributed over a relatively large area of hull.

    I do know that a couple of the Electric Canoes that were built without seats and small knees were very floppy ... so I would like to see some built in buoyancy tanks as they are BY FAR the most efficient way to ensure structural integrity. Closed off areas turn into big box beams.

    Might find this interesting - lifted from the now (sorrowfully) deleted PDRacer Yahoo Discussion group. It was a brilliant resource with contributions of dozens of nice thinkers - some with boat backgrounds ... but many not.

    The debate was that many of the PDRs were being built in 3/8 (9mm) or even 12mm (1/2") plywood and people were still finding that they twisted and the bottom flexed. This was my explanation when they thought that 4mm (5/32") would be too thin by far. Not something I agreed with.

    OZ PD Racer - Structural Efficiency - Michael Storer Boat Design

    The list of articles covering a lot of basic design issues are on this page
    Puddle Duck Racer PD Racer FAQ - Michael Storer Boat Design

    MIK

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    It will have more stresses ... particularly twisting stresses and local stresses trying to push the hull sides sideways - it's not too bad because the setup means the leeway forces at the partner - which is part of the main crossbeam is counteracted by the hulls at the end of the same crossbeam.

    The only real extra stress is the one trying to push the gunwale level one way while the mast step tries to push it the other. I think the length of the chine (which takes that load) means the load is distributed over a relatively large area of hull.

    I do know that a couple of the Electric Canoes that were built without seats and small knees were very floppy ... so I would like to see some built in buoyancy tanks as they are BY FAR the most efficient way to ensure structural integrity. Closed off areas turn into big box beams.

    Might find this interesting - lifted from the now (sorrowfully) deleted PDRacer Yahoo Discussion group. It was a brilliant resource with contributions of dozens of nice thinkers - some with boat backgrounds ... but many not.

    The debate was that many of the PDRs were being built in 3/8 (9mm) or even 12mm (1/2") plywood and people were still finding that they twisted and the bottom flexed. This was my explanation when they thought that 4mm (5/32") would be too thin by far. Not something I agreed with.

    OZ PD Racer - Structural Efficiency - Michael Storer Boat Design

    The list of articles covering a lot of basic design issues are on this page
    Puddle Duck Racer PD Racer FAQ - Michael Storer Boat Design

    MIK
    I had read one of the earlier quick canoe threads, where the builder added buoyancy tanks from the remainder of the 3 plys he had purchased for the quick canoe. I think he was only able to make them 150mm and found they were not enough and thought that 250mm would be better for his situation.

    After reading that i had decided that i would buy an additional sheet so i could make them larger. I have 4 sheets of 6mm ply. I guess i will have to wait and see where you decide to put the mast to figure out the final lengths of the boxes.

    Any chance you will prefer to incorporate the mast within the front box? I dont want to loose to much of the space available within the canoe.

  5. #19
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    I am inclined to think this implies a redundancy. I Like the idea that the partner is the fore crossbeam. This means that only a step is needed.

    In CAD there are also a limited number of positions for the crossbeam and ama assembly. Too far forward and too much load will be put on those small bows under pressure. Too far aft and the main hull will be put out of trim with heel.

    So I am very inclined to have the maststep on the bottom of the boat. To introduce the top of the seat as a third point of location doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

    It is possible if I can get enough fore seat length out of the extra sheet of ply to get back to the fore crossbeam it might make sense to have side arms that go somewhere near the fore crossbeam. Not a biggie if it can't.

    Michael

  6. #20
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    After i posted my last reply, i was thinking that it was a bit silly to discuss space when efficiency of design is more important. Even more so that i am completely ignorant of all things regarding boats. So i would rather have it the way you are inclined to do it (on the bottom of the boat).

  7. #21
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    Also i am quite new to woodworking so the simpler it is the easier it will be for me to build.

  8. #22
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    The guy who said he could get me the lumber i need, can't.

    He does have doug. fir clear but with mixed grain. how critical is the vertical grain?

    I spoke to several yards that have WRC, but they only have STK (straight? tight knot). Is this ok?

  9. #23
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    Mik,

    In the outrigger material list, for the spacer wedges, you ask for 1300 mm lengths and a quantity of 2 for a total length of 2600 mm. However in the drawings, the uncut length of the wedges is specified as 493 mm per side, for a total length of 986 mm.

    What am I missing?

    Thanks.

  10. #24
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    Hello everyone,

    I have another question. Looks like WRC is not going to work. every one i called only had the STK (Select Tight Knot). Wood that is desirable for its nice knots and lots of them.

    My Question. Can i use redwood as a substitute? Plenty of it is available in my area. I tried to find articles and forum posts on it and found mixed reviews. Some say it does not hold fasteners well, other disagree. Some point to their 30 year old redwood canoes as examples of redwood quality. Its heavier then WRC but lighter than DF.

    By the way, the only pine that i could find is radiata, which i have heard not so good things about. If the redwood is not good should i just go with DF all around?

    Thanks

  11. #25
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    Plantation grown radiata is fine. It mills, glues and fastens well.
    Building Gardens of Fenwick, a Welsford Parthfinder
    Gardens of Fenwick
    Karen Ann, a Storer GIS
    Goat Island Skiff - Sacramento

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue sailor View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I have another question. Looks like WRC is not going to work. every one i called only had the STK (Select Tight Knot). Wood that is desirable for its nice knots and lots of them.

    My Question. Can i use redwood as a substitute? Plenty of it is available in my area. I tried to find articles and forum posts on it and found mixed reviews. Some say it does not hold fasteners well, other disagree. Some point to their 30 year old redwood canoes as examples of redwood quality. Its heavier then WRC but lighter than DF.

    By the way, the only pine that i could find is radiata, which i have heard not so good things about. If the redwood is not good should i just go with DF all around?

    Thanks
    If the Redwood is good for gluing I wouldn't worry about if it is good for fasteners. Fasteners partially relate to timber density. So it will be a complaint of many lighter timbers. The main fasteners in the AMA are through bolted or can be glued studs. Everything is glued otherwise.

    The pine is a nice substitute for the fir if you can't get it.

    MIK

  13. #27
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    BobWes and Mik,

    Thanks for your replies. I confirmed that the radiata pine sold at Home Depot is plantation grown in New Zealand. However, when i looked up the properties for radiata pine, i was surprised by its density. New Zealand radiata pine has an average density of 500 kg/m^3 (31 lbs/ft^3) which is very close to DF.

    Is there something else about it that would cause you to recommend using it over the DF?

    Info from Radiata Pine : NZWOOD.

    Redwood has excellent gluing and rot resistent properties and is considered very similar to WRC, however it is about 10% more brittle. Not sure if coating it with epoxy would help with it being brittle. In the plans the bends dont look too severe and it would be glued to plywood for support. Should i still be concerned?

    I can also get norway spruce or ponderosa pine. I havent had time to look at the spruce properties. the pine is the same weight as the redwood.

    Side Note: in my search for info on woods i found this excellent write up on properties of woods. I scrolled through it and it looks lite it has info on every type of wood you can find. In case anyone is interested: http://www.conradlumberco.com/pdfs/c...es-of-Wood.pdf. Properties Tables start on page 4.

  14. #28
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    Hello everyone,

    I am back at it!!

    Quick question: How soon after the epoxy kicks (is this the correct term for the epoxy warming up?) do you stop using it. Today is the first time i have used epoxy that has warmed up before i finished using it. It remained the same peanut buttery consistency for quite some time after it kicked. Eventually I got nervous and stopped using it.

    side note: (just so i don't come across as a complete slacker) My dad has been quite sick over the last year and his health has been on a huge roller coaster ride. Taking care of him took up most of my time. I have only been able to work sporadically on the canoe. My apologies to you, Mik, for having you rush the plans before last Christmas break. Unfortunately my dad's health took a down turn at the same time. He has been stable for the last couple months so i have decided to work on the not so quick for me canoe. This seriously has to be slowest quick canoe build ever.

    Hopefully I can attach the pics correctly:

    I had to build a bench first since i didn't have a large enough surface area to comfortably work on the plys. I think callsign had posted a link to some similar ones (thanks for that).

    20121005_105513.jpg

    I learned how slippery uncured epoxy can be. I place the bricks on the butt straps and the butt straps started sliding off the panels .

    20130222_142823.jpg20130302_155647.jpg20130222_172814.jpg

    I learned that not all duct tapes are created equal. Due to humidity and high temps the cheap stuff started to come off 20 or so minutes after I finished. I ran (drove) to the store to buy the most expensive duct tape which was about $15 so i bought the second most expensive for about $10 (actually it may have been the third).

    20130705_194727.jpg20130706_113151.jpg20130706_200616.jpg20130706_120400.jpg

    The duct tape was not enough to keep the shape of the canoe so i added some zip ties and tack welded between them. This is when I had the epoxy issue.

    I followed ozsmithy's advise on cutting the lumber on my small table saw and also bought the thin kerf blades. It worked like a charm and the cuts came out very clean. Thanks ozsmithy.

    20130710_194121.jpg20130710_194357.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #29
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    Default QC and outriggers in Florida

    Hi all --

    I wrote MIK to request sail plan, etc. to go with my plans for QC and OR's. I don't know where to look for a response when it comes. I found that this is the most recent of the several QC threads, so can anyone clue me in? I'm on gmail, don't have outlook. In the meantime I'll keep watching here.

    Thanks...

    Bob

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobn181 View Post
    Hi all --

    I wrote MIK to request sail plan, etc. to go with my plans for QC and OR's. I don't know where to look for a response when it comes. I found that this is the most recent of the several QC threads, so can anyone clue me in? I'm on gmail, don't have outlook. In the meantime I'll keep watching here.

    Thanks...

    Bob
    Hi bob. if you have an email address attached to this forum, you will receive an email stating you have a private message. hopefully you gave Mik your email address in the message you sent him so he can send you the additional plans. Be patient, sometimes it takes him a bit to respond. if you don't hear from him in a few days, send him a reminder incase he may have missed your message.

    And good luck with your build!! I hope you will post your progress here.

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