Thread: sailing quick canoe with outriggers in Southern California

Hi, congrat's on starting your build you probably need a couple more tools, a electric planer makes it easy to gauge timber down to a size and does not need to be a expensive one, a hand plane that is nice and sharp makes getting a good finish on timber easy and are easy to get for 10-20 $ second hand, try to get one that is a 'smoother' type and look at 'scary sharp' on the net for easy sharpening. As you have a small table saw, with a bit of practice you should be able to get a rip as good or better that a timber yard, things to check are, is the blade good and sharp, if you get another one buy a 'thin kerf' blade, this reduces waste from ripping and feeds easier, check the blade is very square to the table, check that the fence is very square to the table (very important for easier planing after) the trick is just to be very steady when feeding the timber, dont use a lot of pressure if you have trouble being steady make some feather boards on your miter saw and clamp them to the table saw on the feed side to keep even pressure on the timber as you feed it, and use a push stick to finish the cut!! for the thicker timber just glue and clamp two pieces together I.E. two 1" pieces gives you 2" or about 51mm then rip and plane back to size if you do a good job it will look nice and if you oppose the grain correctly it is also stronger as a bonus lol If you are a bit nervous with the planing remember to start with a stick that is a bit to long and it will be at the ends that you will have the most trouble controlling the plane the get it good and cut the best out of it. And have fun

Sorry about the delay in sending you the additional info Blue Sailor ... it is on its way.

I've been struggling a bit with both time and getting a good break on my internet connection on the island of Labuan off Borneo.

Anyway ... stuff you asked for is on its way.

Michael

Hi mik

Please take your time. I just wasnt sure if my messages were getting through since my sent items folder keeps showing 0 messages sent. Also I made the poor assumption that you were simply going to attach drawings you had on hand instead of creating some for my situation.

I apologize for rushing you.

Mik,

I have a some questions regarding epoxy and fiberglass. I was trying to figure out which epoxy i should order since there are quite a few options out there. I went to duckworksbbs to see what you recommended for the GIS. I was wondering what made the Marinepoxy the economy version (if anything besides the price), such as strength, application issues, etc?

Concerning fiberglass cloth and tape. Previously you had mentioned the use of cloth in situations where damage may occur to the bottom of the boat while launching from a rocky beach or if the boat gets hung up on a rock. I will not be not be launching my boat from rocky shores so it would seem that glassing the bottom will not be necessary. But since I will be using the quick canoe for sailing purposes as well, do i need to reconsider this? Will the sail apply additional loads to the quick canoe beyond what its current design can handle? I guess the outriggers are also resisting the rotation of the canoe from the load of the sails, which may cause additional stresses in the hull. So do i need the cloth to overcome these additional loads?

In the instruction manuals for both the canoe and outriggers you specify 2" tape but not the weight. Is 2oz good enough or do i need to go heavier (assuming i do not have to use the cloth)?

thanks

Let me help.

I used Marinepoxy for my boat, as did Peteloaf for his Eureka, and probably a bevy of others have used it as well. I have found no issues with it what-so-ever. If you follow Mik's epoxy instructions and maybe this guide from West (remember the ratios are different!) you won't have any problems either and you'll save some $$$. I've had it blush twice, you'll know when it does.

I'm assuming you are building the boat with chinelogs. The cloth will not necessarily add huge amounts of strength to a shaped ply boat with chinelogs, etc. The stiffening of the hull is a valid point, but the glass won't do it. The chines do need to be taped to help seal the endgrain of the bottom of the boat and also to protect them from rocks, sand, etc. as they will take more abuse than anything else. I used 6oz tape for my chines on the GIS, and recently I had the boat get slammed, fully loaded, repeatedly on a giant boulder. I was sure I had stoved in the chine and was prepared for the worst, yet Icame away with cosmetic problems and maybe a small gash. 2oz is light, but if there are not rocks around (I sail in Maine-- lots of rocks) and you're mostly on sand, you might be ok. 2oz is light, but will fill the weave quickly with little epoxy. 6oz offers more protection but more work, epoxy, etc. Your call.

Hello callsign222,

Thank you for the link to the guide.

Actually i was planning on filleting the inside of the chines. Does this make for a weaker connection? The reason i was planning on going with 2oz cloth or tape was because Mik had referenced the Jarcat which only used the 2oz cloth. But for tape only i was thinking i might have to go heavier since such a small portion of the bottom will have glass covering it. I am not sure if Mik allows for the use of cloth on the bottom of his boats simply for abrasion or impact resistance or also for carrying some of the stresses the boats feels from sailing loads.

The epoxy kit for the GIS on duckworksbbs, also includes 6oz cloth, which i am not sure how to reconcile with the info on the Jarcat.

None of his boats have expansive areas of glassed bottoms, only the chines are taped. Some throw down whole carpets of stuff, but that's a personal decision. As far as fillets vs chinelogs, don't know.

Thats the feeling i got from reading some of his older posts. I wonder if the contents of the epoxy kits are determined by duckworksbbs, since the inclusion of the 6 oz cloth appears to be inconsistent with his comparison to the Jarcat, but that comment is about 2 years old.

FWIW, going the economy route is in keeping with the spirit of the QC. SOME people have used wood glue... but then some people are prone to breaking the rules.

Originally Posted by davlafont

FWIW, going the economy route is in keeping with the spirit of the QC. SOME people have used wood glue... but then some people are prone to breaking the rules.

Its about a $100 cheaper for the 3 gal. kit. If blush is the only issue and it does not produce a weaker bond, i will happily save the money.

Good Digging Blue Sailor!

The glass tape is typically between 4 and 6oz. 50mm tape has shown itself to be adequate for boats built of 6mm ply or less over many years.

The mention of 2oz cloth is purely to save weight if someone absolutely MUST glass their boat from their own point of view. That's OK. So I specify light weight and cover the minimum amount of the boat possible. So something chined ... I would do the bottom and around the chine to replace the glass tape on the outside of the hull for the QC or goat.

For the Eureka ... if it is built of 6mm ply and the person is adamant about glassing the bottom (I don't think it is necessary in almost any case for this thickness of ply) I would 2oz glass the bottom panel and around the chine - eliminating the glass tape on that chine.

But if the Eureka is built of 4mm - which is a bit light I recommend using the 2oz glass on the bottom, bilge panel and 25mm onto the topside panel.

One Eureka built this way fell fully laden with two blokes and camping gear off a 6ft weir in the UK. A dead drop. It split the topside above the glass for a few feet but they taped it up and got home fine - watching the map carefully for more weirs (I imagine).

If a boat gets damage but can get home with something severe like this I would consider it acceptable strength. To design and construct a canoe or kayak to drop off 6ft weirs fully laden so that nothing breaks is bad design and overdoing it.

Unless it is a specific function of the boat - like some of the things that Eli Helbert (Paul Helbert's son) does with canoe rodeo.



But in a way ... super experienced people like Eli are likely to be able to protect their canoe by pure skill.

My aim is always to design for mainstream use in the lightest and simplest (usually the cheapest way.

As far as Fillets vs glass - a fillet made with a radius of 3 times the ply thickness will be equal to the glass.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

One Eureka built this way fell fully laden with two blokes and camping gear off a 6ft weir in the UK. A dead drop. It split the topside above the glass for a few feet but they taped it up and got home fine - watching the map carefully for more weirs (I imagine).

Dam...thats all i got to say to that...

Originally Posted by callsign222

I used 6oz tape for my chines on the GIS, and recently I had the boat get slammed, fully loaded, repeatedly on a giant boulder. I was sure I had stoved in the chine and was prepared for the worst, yet Icame away with cosmetic problems and maybe a small gash. 2oz is light, but if there are not rocks around (I sail in Maine-- lots of rocks) and you're mostly on sand, you might be ok. 2oz is light, but will fill the weave quickly with little epoxy. 6oz offers more protection but more work, epoxy, etc. Your call.

I'll go with the 6oz tape then, especially since callsign222's...um...material testing of goat meets boulder was successful...

The glass weight also depends on the boat and the plywood thickness.

6mm is just about right for the Goat. It is pretty tough for a lighter simpler (and I guess slower) boat like the QC Electric.

MIK

Without testing empirically, it is even difficult to estimate how much more weight a cloth will add. It should be obvious that it is not just the weight of the cloth that is added, but also more epoxy is used. The cloth will also suck up epoxy and the epoxy layer becomes ticker and heavier.