Thread: Solo "Expedition" Sailboat

Originally Posted by Watermaat

Not to be negative on this keel idea, but a ballast keel really starts working from 30-35 degrees angle, maximizing this at 90 degrees.

My thoughts are more along the lines that the flat bottom works at low angles, and works very little at the higher angles, when the ballast starts to work. They might even make a good team!

I think what I am trying to say is, flat bottom has high initial stability and low secondary stability, and the ballast keel has low initial but high secondary stability. Perhaps it would work well.

Brian

If you google a bit on " i550 tokio trash baby " you will find building pics and several blogs. I think the bottum panel is one with a cut in the front part, but I am not shure.
It's pretty simple stitch and glue building and nothing is refined woodworking. But that hullshape painted with that high-tech rigging really looks good!

When I was assembling my GIS there was a point in the process when she looked a lot like that 505. I had the bulkheads installed except for the transom.

It was a sexy looking shape, I tell ya. Gave me idears, stretch the Goat to about 18 feet, let the natural width aft determine the over all beam, build a false floor for self bailing and give her an Aussie name..."Eye-teen."

Originally Posted by Watermaat

This bulb is 75kg to match class rules. This design needs to be selfrighting for coastal and sea sailing.

Whenever I find myself clinging to the surface of a deck when it's laid on it's side after a broach, I tend to be pleased there is a keel about to right the boat. Not sure with 360kg of 4 hefty 90kg guys hanging there I would like the feeling of 75kg being available to right the boat pinned down by high winds. I have seen a J24 stay 180 degree inverted in this situation, a horrible sight.

Brian

Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter

My thoughts are more along the lines that the flat bottom works at low angles, and works very little at the higher angles, when the ballast starts to work. They might even make a good team!

I think what I am trying to say is, flat bottom has high initial stability and low secondary stability, and the ballast keel has low initial but high secondary stability. Perhaps it would work well.

Brian

Hi Brian,

I agree with you in that perspective.
But I think it's not that flat bottum that's responsable for its low secondairy stability, but the lack of flair in the sides.
In GIS and even more extreme in this i550 design this flair shifts underwater volume more and more under the lee side when heeling, so your body weight becomes more effective. If there is no or hardly flair this effect is much less appearent.

Attached picture shows my idea. i550 getting closer to a critical angle but these huge flaired sides are now under water and crew weight is very effective to avoid capsizing.

Could it be the combination of high freeboard and narrow beam that causes the stability to fall off so suddenly, especially when sitting out? As the boat heels the windward gunwale rises but the sailor's weight is also carried closer to the centreline. When the boat is well up on the chine the (human) ballast is perched high above, pretty much centered over the centre of buoyancy.

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Could it be the combination of high freeboard and narrow beam that causes the stability to fall off so suddenly, especially when sitting out?

She does not have a problem when sitting out. Yes she is narrow and lively, but no problem at all. When sitting out the foils are working, the boat is "loaded" and she is fine. The load helps immerse the hull and her buoyancy can work.

All the problems are when un-loaded as I have tried to describe. Somehow her lightness lets her float so high her buoyancy does not even get a chance to work. Hence adding weight, to plant her.

Hopefully soon MIK will have a chance to see how he finds her, it might be he has no problem being so experienced in this form of hull.

Brian

I am gettng closer ...

My guess is that the sailing might be more familiar to me, but still concerned about the idea of getting back aboard.

MIK

Chris Perkins has written a postscript on his blog that I thought you might also like to read. I guess it is time to be writing postscripts for this project.

I quote-

"I was delighted to see Micheal Storer’s report of his test sail of the first completed Raid41 built by Bryan Cull in America. It was gratifying to see that it was, after all, possible to sail the design without getting uncomfortably wet. A brief video was taken of the event and for those who followed the build and haven’t seen it yet, I am happy to be able to post it here with MIK’s consent. Thanks MIK and congratulations to Bryan on a succesfull build.

For MIK’s write up on the day’s test sail go here

For the sorry story of the English versions sailing misadventures see here et seq.

Six months effort for three outings (as far as I can work out) - was it really worth it? I like to think that if a boat is used for more hours than it took to build then it was worth the builders effort, otherwise the figures simply don’t stack up."

Sad that such criticism comes from a man who has four hardly ever used boats in his garden.

My own postscript may best come from the difficult e-mail I wrote to Michael only earlier this week.

Quoting from my e-mail -

Hi Michael

this is a really difficult e-mail to write and I have been putting it off for more than a week.

I have had to re-asses my ability to sail for any length of time. Being honest I realised that my dizziness is much worse this last 18 months than before. Pretty permanent and made much worse by sailing. It has taken ages to admit it but it is the reality I have to deal with.

With much regret I gave up big boat sailing after recongnising this earlier this year, just to concentrate on dinghy sailing.

Recently I did a Scow 3 race regatta on a Saturday and then a normal series race on the Sunday. After hours on the water on Saturday I felt pretty bad on Sunday and during the pre race jilling about really knew I should not be out there - blowing 17 to 20 knots full main up.

When the gun went my adrenaline kicked in and I felt better and in fact won the race by over 4 minutes. However, I was really bad all the next week.

This made me think long and hard. I have decided I can only cope with short sailing times on the water and best to have a safety boat around me. And that racing fires up my adrenaline which helps. So Scow racing, which as you know I love, is it for me. Luckily I love it, so I have to be glad about that.

I did the potter to the Yar the other Saturday knowing it would make me ill but it is such a wonderful sail. We were on the water 5 hours in all. I was dizzy tacking back up to Keyhaven and had a spitting headache. Next morning I was still dizzy just walking the dogs, so no racing that day, and spent the rest of the day keeping quiet and still. By Monday I was better so that was good, not taking a week to recover.

I have sold my fishing boat, tenders and stopped my mooring. The Skerryskiff is also sold.

Now the hard bit.

I realise I can have no future with RAID41. After struggling so hard with her, I just have to call it a day. I just do not have the energy to develop her. She was lovely to sail, very responsive. As you now know. And it hurts when people ask about her being skittish or difficult.

The other issue is that Chris is still saying horrible things about me and RAID on his blog. I just have to bring it to an end. I want nothing in my life that has anything to do with him. I have to move on for the good of my health.

So, I have given the Raid41 hull away. I have kept all the rig and foils so she cannot be used to sail. When trying to decide what to do, one of the forumites got in touch. He lives near the Thames, so I have given her away to have a future as a River Launch.

I am really sorry Michael. To quit in this way.

I have been putting this email off whilst you had such a great time in the US.

I thought the three of us would make a great team but it was not to be. I also though the three boats, PDR, Goat and Beth would produce a great boat but that also was not to be. Now you have sailed her you can work on ideas and solve them.

Brian

MIK's reply

"I am really glad you kept the sailing bits - they might come in useful for something else and also they show a duty of care to the person who now has the boat. It is a good solution"

And so we have to move on. MIK must have a head full of ideas after all the boats and things he has seen on his Far East and USA trips.

Chris is involved in a wonderful development of 4 oared rowing skiffs, the St, Ayles class. He is involved with building one in Ullapoool and hopefully will at last spend time on the water in a boat designed by Iain Oughtred. A great result after a bad year.

Ullapool Coastal Rowing

Even amongst all this, in 2009 I managed to scrape three series wins in my Scow. Quite how I will never know, better people often not turning up I guess. In December I will collect my prizes, three whisky tumblers. I will place a small amount of liquid in each and toast. One glass to Michael and whatever new design his travels will create, one glass to Chris in the hope he can leave the bitterness behind and fully enjoy the St Ayles skiff project, rowing out on the water at last and the last glass will be to my family. They seem somehow to stand by this crazy smallboat obsessed man who at last seems to have twigged that the Scow is the one and only boat he can sail and should sail. Hopefully a rowing boat will come along as well - to strengthen my back!

All the best to everyone who followed our trials and tribulations,

Brian

Hi Brian,
I have followed this thread for a while now, it has been very interesting. I didnt know people were taking shots at you for building a prototype and being brave enough to share the process as you went. Congratulations to you and your mate for building a concept boat and gettig it on the water.
You showed us a lot about sailmaking too
Your reports about the boat as you sailed it and the discussion you have had here with others have very interesting and forward looking. You are obviously trying to make the design better, I cant believe anyone couldnt see that.
I am sorry to see that you cant do all you want to do because you are a bit crook, but glad to see that you are smart enough to know this.
So keep going hard in the scow, and dont waste the ply you mentioned in another thread Build yourself a rowboat
Dont go away

Tom

A difficult letter indeed Brian.
Thanks for letting us share the journey.
All the best as you continue yours.
Hope you'll stay on-list.
cheers
Alan J.

Brian,

Thank you for sharing such a difficult decision with us. I appreciate the candor.

You are not a quitter in any sense at all. You are an accomplished sailor who was instrumental in bringing a new design to life. You are wise to recognize an evolving limitation and to face it straight on rather than ignore it. You are to be admired and respected.

In my mind, there is another whiskey toast to be made: To Brian for your efforts with Raid41, for your generosity in sharing the trials and tribulations of Raid41, and for your continued success in whatever endeavors you pursue.

Bob

Brian,

Sometimes it takes more courage and determination to end something than to continue. This is particularly true as we get older and especially when our health is involved (been there, done that). Congratulations on making the tough decisions and on the grace and perseverance you have shown throughout this process.

Now about that 10lb kayak .

take care,
clay

Having monitored the progress of the Raid 41 since it featured in Watercraft (magazine). I am disappointed that such an interesting design should run into "rough water".

I sail a Firebug, and I'm 90 KG in my sailing clothes, twice the weight of the boat, so if I capsize it can be tricky, she comes up OK but then tips over on me as I try to climb aboard, unless I can fill the sail with a good weight of wind. Yes, as suggested I use a stirrip.

With the Raid 41, may I be impertinent and suggest fitting bilge runners of (say) 30mm depth from midship aft. They could even have a hand hold (at the cost of some turbulence) but they would provide a lodgement for the sailors foot as he tried to climb onto the centreboard as well as a grip on the hull as one recovers from the shock of the spill. This should make righting the boat much less tiring.

Ross V