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  1. #76
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    May 2008
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    UK
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    Bruce, I think where we differ if that I think the beginner needs a vang just as much as anyone, more so. It's not a tweaking device, it's a safety device.

    I find MIK's stubborn refusal to change his advice when safety is involved unforgivable.

    It's best I no longer come here.

    Brian

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  3. #77
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Aberfoyle Park SA
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    63
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    Gentlemen
    can we please simply agree to disagree about the importance of a vang ?

    This thread was started to review possible causes of a specific boat's behaviour
    on a specific occasion. There was hurt a-plenty for the active participants in
    the project when it didn't work as hoped (and some guilt for those of us who
    egged it on without actually putting our money where our mouths were).

    Let's not create more hurt. Please ?

    AJ

  4. #78
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    960

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    Wow, what just happened? Brian, are you having a bad day or are you serious? Was this sarcasm?

    Brian, c'mon, this has been a great thread full of great information and discussion and I, for one, definitely did not pick up that Mik is exercising "stubborn refusal" against a vang at all.

    You may think beginners might need a vang, sure, but that's all relative. Lug rigged Rowan and Big Food out in Washington don't have vangs, and they go everywhere in big green cold water, and Tim in Big Food was a beginner, but he learned from his friends, his experiences, and on his own. Some people also think beginners need training wheels on a bicycle. People have sailed for centuries without vangs and somehow sailors kept getting old and reproducing. We're not talking about a jetliner here, but a piece of rigging on a simple, silly, dinghy. There is really no reason for such an extreme pronouncement after your 800 posts, mostly filled with interesting stories, theories, and ideas that have benefited and have been accepted by everyone here.

    Basically, your safety argument is valid, but it is a personal opinion, people should be held accountable for their own actions, and if you want to outfit your traditionally rigged boat with a vang, or your beginner friend with a vang, FINE, but please, please don't join the chorus of creativity-and-fun-crushing hordes that think anything they don't do or agree with is dangerous and must be stopped. This is an ideological position that leads to crazy unnecessary regulations that are written by people who don't know what they are talking about. Tyrannies are created in the Name of Safety.

    Agree to disagree and dispense advice where you see fit, please by all means do so. I just think you are being a tad reactionary and dampening a great thread that I have quietly enjoyed, which includes your knowledgeable commentary.

    *******************

    I don't know why I just jumped in here to something that's not my fight, but I think B.O.A.T. has great advice. This is a great place, with great people, and this kind of came out of left field. Maybe this my paltry attempt to try to keep a good discussion and keep the mental talent that frequents this place-- and that includes you Brian.
    Last edited by callsign222; 23rd March 2011 at 07:04 AM. Reason: Extraneous paragraph

  5. #79
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fenwick, Michigan
    Age
    75
    Posts
    908

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    Great post! You've captured my exact reaction to Brian's post. Thanks. I wish I could have articulated my thoughts so clearly.

    Brian, how does your leaving add anything more to the discussion? I never understood Mik to be opposed to vangs but it seems all is in interpretation. You feel strongly about the topic but your silence certainly won't convince anyone of your position. I, for one, hope you continue to contribute here.
    Building Gardens of Fenwick, a Welsford Parthfinder
    Gardens of Fenwick
    Karen Ann, a Storer GIS
    Goat Island Skiff - Sacramento

  6. #80
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
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    65
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    8,138

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    As do I.

    MIK

    Added later ... Pic of a downhaul limiting sail twist in light to moderate air. To say "no vanging effect" is too extreme.

    Last edited by Boatmik; 17th May 2011 at 07:47 PM.

  7. #81
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Poland
    Age
    67
    Posts
    805

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    Vang? (kicking strap? Excuse me, but I'm not from the circle of Anglo culture).

    I think it is very useful. Of course - for many years sailed without it. I had it only on my previous boat - a racing background, 10.5 sqm of bermudian mainsail.

    BETH does not have it. There do not even really see how this could be fitted (a small distance from the boom above the deck there), but the twist of the main sail is sometimes too much - especially in gusts. Perhaps vang (kicking strap) would be nice, and it would be useful.

    Every who believes that it is useful and has the technical possibilities to mount it - he can do it! For his own responsibility and for his use.
    Aloha!
    Robert Hoffman
    http://robhosailor.blogspot.com/


  8. #82
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    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    Yes Robert,

    Boom vang, kicking strap or sometimes kicker (though that can be a rope to stop a spinnaker pole rising too high) - all the same.

    Michael

  9. #83
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. View Post
    My gut feel, rightly or wrongly, is that there is still a fast single-handed touring
    boat lurking in there somewhere, for all of the dimensional reasons you
    offered in the original proposal.
    You bet there is.

    I've only just got around to reading this thread and I am somewhat reluctant to comment cause Brian knows a thing or two but.........can't let a good discussion go by.

    First Bruce makes excellent points about the gybe in itself as we all know if we are going to go for a swim that is likely the time. With so many variables happening all at once phew.
    My worst was in a LW Sharpie in over 25kts screaming down big seas on a broad reach no spinnaker cause we were too chicken, I was on the wire. Coming up to the mark we missed the surf down a wave as the skipper made the call the mainsheet hand pulled in some main too late the next wave picked us up and buried the bow as I slipped forward on the gunwhale ouch it hurt, there was no coming back from that broach.
    We often did the same thing in 10 knots though.

    The point is as Johns video so graphically shows it don't take too many things to go wrong that result in a swim.

    Brian FWIW my theory is
    1. Weight too far forward
    2. Main sheeted in a little too much
    3. Light winds so you were not expecting any grief.
    4. As the boat heeled the high sides prevented a quick or effective counter move by your good self particularly as it got to 45 deg.
    5. End result a quite normal small boat round up capsize.

    Back to the boat my first thoughts after viewing Brian's finished boat was wow those sides are high. I think 3-4" off the freeboard particularly midships may make a significant difference to how the boat behaves and counter the issues raised here possibly even the righting.
    Would that be possible within the design parameters Mik?
    Probably not practical to make the change on Brian's but.....maybe.

    Anyway good sailing everyone
    Mike
    Mike
    "Working to a rigidly defined method of doubt and uncertainty"

  10. #84
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    G'day Mike
    IIRC, the high sides were (largely) caused by rowing ergonomics
    with the raised floor. Removing the totally self-draining requirement
    lowers the floor, & allows lower sides.
    They'd still need to be reasonably high to keep splash out.
    Being wet & cold is not a fun way to tour. Or safe.

    I reckon lose maybe a couple of inches midship & aft free-board, giving greater
    sheer sweep (I'm a sucker for a sweeping sheer), and abandon the permanent
    raised floor. Low, longitudinal water ballast each side with stowage/buoyancy
    above & each end. Old-style drain tubes aft to let the bulk of the water out
    at a time of your own choosing.

    It really is getting closer to a pointy-nosed OzRacer Mk3.
    cheers
    AJ

  11. #85
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    Mar 2007
    Location
    Adelaide
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    Well hurry up and get that painting done then.

    I like Brian's original concept, water ballast dry floor etc. if rowing is the issue there must be a way of dropping the sides and still mount the oarlocks, what about those extra long ones.

    Scary I've got some blokes putting in a new retaining wall this week, boat building budget blown to pieces, then it's on to the same painting.
    Mike
    "Working to a rigidly defined method of doubt and uncertainty"

  12. #86
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Aberfoyle Park SA
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    Had Serene Scene do my wall - 44M of it (and pergola & paving).
    Hope to have some money again one day.
    Who's doing yours?
    AJ

  13. #87
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Adelaide
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    2,139

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    Wow looks fantastic, Eye Spy Landscaping good price great blokes.
    Mike
    "Working to a rigidly defined method of doubt and uncertainty"

  14. #88
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    'Delaide, Australia
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    Nice landscaping!

    It is a nice thought experiment to think of trying the changes with the RAID41 as Mike and AJ suggest.

    The easiest way to do it would be to remove the bottom, cut a new rocker and glue cleats and then resheet the bottom.

    The problem, however, is probably multifactorial - and this approach is a stab in the dark. It is a really nice on to try, but the results are still uncertain.

    The other thing I thought it would be interesting to try is to keep the water inside the cockpit until the crew is aboard - and then open the transom scuppers. A combination of less buoyancy under the floor and water in the boat might help keep the freeboard down some. Would not work so well with Brian's boat because of the cockpit side lockers preventing the boat from scooping up water as it was righted. The side tanks were there as a place for water ballast they allowed it to be released quickly with no pumping.

    After the difficulty of sailing the boat was discovered, I really didn't know what to do, so thought it best just to stop developing the plan as there was no obvious solution, and it had some bearing on safety.

    Best wishes
    Michael

  15. #89
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    Agree with general idea that water needs to be admitted into the boat in a
    capsize, and retained there upon righting. That water also needs to be kept
    low to keep CoG down. I don't see that it needs to be 100% self draining
    once the sailor has re-boarded & opened the manual scuppers. Just enough
    that whatever is left doesn't create a control & stability problem, and
    represents minimal manual bailing for the (solo) sailor.

    Earlier I suggested abandoning the raised floor altogether. An intermediate
    idea may be to retain much of the raised floor, but with a foot well slightly aft
    of mid-ships emptied by bilge pump or auto-bailer. Foot well would also allow
    the rowing seat to be lowered, allowing lower sides. Foot well to be covered
    over for sleeping with boards clipped to floor somewhere out of the way.

    The side decks evidently need to be narrower to ensure water is allowed into
    the boat in a capsize.

    Mods to existing hulls could be a bit tricky.
    & would always look like a patch-up except in the hands of a skilled builder.
    Anyway, Brian (UK) got rid of his hull.
    What did Bryan (USA) do with his?
    AJ

  16. #90
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Adelaide
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    Well AJ we expect the painting to be complete tout suite. Your great ideas need to be explored.
    Mike
    "Working to a rigidly defined method of doubt and uncertainty"

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