Thread: Son of Goat project

The great Danish Sailor Paul Elvestrom tried that on the Flying Dutchman to see if they could get away with one trapeze wire to reduce drag.

I think they found when it worked perfectly it was not tooooo bad, but most of the time it was even a bit tricky for those guys.

MIK

Hi Christophe,

You mentioned a wetsuit a few posts ago. I've been wondering about that as the water can be pretty chilly and it is pretty easy for an inexperienced sailor such as myself to take an accidental swim. Are you sailing wit a wetsuit when it is cold and windy, if so, how is it to be wearing a not yet wet wetsuit for a few hours of sailing?
Thanks for the trip updates on the blog!
-Al

Al,

There are a bunch of different options to cold-weather gear, I'm sure Mik and Bruce would love to chime in with their favorites too.

I have a 3/2 full wetsuit, so that means its 3mm/2mm thick (depending on the panel) and its a full body, as opposed to a "shorty" which is covers thighs, torso, and upper arms, or a "Farmer John" which is two piece overalls with a separate jacket. The 3/2 is a little thin for up here in NH and ME, it would be better suited down in Long Island Sound for late Spring to early Fall. I could probably use a 4mm or 5mm or so up here for 3 season use.

The wetsuit will keep you a little warm when not in the water, especially in summer, but it's real capabilities are when it fills with water and that water heats to your body temperature-- that's when you're swimming. So if it's dry, and you're dry, no problems. If you fall in the water, its nice to have as long as you're swimming, it will keep you a little warmer as you negotiate getting the boat upright, or back into the boat. Once in the boat, it will keep you a little warmer for a little while longer, but not much as the water drains out and you're just left with a neoprene wetsuit.

So, for me, when it's summer and the water is cold, I can wear the wetsuit and maybe some shorts to not burn a hole through my wetsuit's butt and I might be a little warm. If it's colder out, then I want to make sure I have an insulation layer on, or at the very least, some sort of spray jacket or pants. I have a cheap pair of Helly Hansen rain pants and a nylon lightweight waterproof jacket. This cuts down on the windchill after I fall in and am soaking wet. A wool hat (warm when wet) and some neoprene booties help too, especially with the water sloshing in the bottom of the boat you're feet will be cold without them but toasty with them.

Over the course of a day the wetsuit will feel a little sticky and you'll be glad to be out of it by the end of the day. Your butt will itch too if not wearing underwear, or at least that's just me. Hence the sandpaper on the tiller, according to Bruce . But if you fall in the cold water, and you're swimming, you'll be glad to have it.

There are other better methods for dinghy sailing, like dry suits/immersion suits, etc. but the price points start going up considerably, that's why I use the wetsuit-spray suit combo, it's relatively effective, not the best, but a more budget compromise.

This is a kind of a subject area with a lot of personal preference and is dependent on air and water temperatures, and the support you may or may not have nearby.

Oh, and lifejacket. All the time, everyday.

In all my post-snorkeling wetsuit glory, "Come hither, far horizon, or I come to you, in my Goat Island Skiff!".

As you can see, I'm skinny, so I need to work at staying warm.

Ooooh the gratuitous hero shots... so hot right now.

I agree with Christophe about the virtues of a wetsuit. Depending on where you are in the world, they are more or less essential I think. For conditions here in OZ, I like the shorty or "short john" as they are called. It covers thighs, torso chest and back, but leaves your arms completely free as it has no sleeves. Padded shorts over the suit and for summer a long sleeve rashie over the suit with a nice heavy duty spray jacket to keep out the wind. A woollen fleece under the jacket works well if it's cold, but they have great lightweight combo wetsuit tops available now that I wouldn't mind getting for when you just know it's gonna be a cold one.

The main thing to think about is the water temperature. When you're immersed in cold water for only a very short time you can quickly become weak and unable to climb back into the boat so a wetsuit can buy you a great deal of time. 3mm for our local water temps is fine, but if you have water temps below 10degC you will need the thicker ones.

Booties are a good idea, as they keep your feet warm, help with grip and absorb a lot of knocks. Also, you just never know what nasties lurk near the shoreline when you hop out of the boat. Over the years I've had glass cuts, scorpion stings and in Africa, a number of acacia thorns that were among the driftwood, the biggest was 5" long and through my heel. Having that one removed by the ex nurse who ran the committee boat was no picnic and made the water scorpion episode seem like fun.

And of course Christophe is right about the the life jacket or PFD as they call them now. Wear it all the the time.

Originally Posted by callsign222

In all my post-snorkeling wetsuit glory, "Come hither, far horizon, or I come to you, in my Goat Island Skiff!".

As you can see, I'm skinny, so I need to work at staying warm.

Ooooh the gratuitous hero shots... so hot right now.

Tres chic!

Tres gretuitous!

MIK
hehe

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Howdy

Remember it takes a lot of time to do all the documentation from this point. But first glimpse.

Spent the weekend fissling with the shape. It was a bit of a struggle. I think I was spooked by how nice the Goat looks, How to create a successor?

I don't know how many versions I have checked. The first shorter version of the Goat was drawn up years ago.

Anyway it looks like it fits on the ply, a couple of things to resolve structurally as well But feeling happy and confident about this version.

The sail is not the PDR one as I had hoped to use the two sails directly, but is a bit higher aspect. The PDR sails just didn't look right as the aspect ratio was too low. But can use the mast, yard, centreboard, rudder and rudderbox.

MIK

I’ve been thinking about what, if anything could be changed with the current SOG sketch-up that might help. If the cockpit is small enough, why not have a double-floor/self draining cockpit in favour of the rear seat? I’m thinking a self draining cockpit for a sporty little boat like this would be nice as it gets away from needing a bucket on the equipment list or to install self bailers, for very minimal additional weight. A bucket would be a bit of a nuisance in this boat. Would there be much of a weight issue at all of doing this compared with the rear seat structure?

I'm not sure if it would still fit on the ply sheets though.

Maybe something along the lines of the Truc 12, except without the double floor along the entire length or its ultra wide transom?

Howdy Bruce, One thing I found with some double bottom boats without a rear tank is that the stern can end up sinking in a capsize. To have self draining and a rear tank adds quite a bit to materials and weight.

This is the first time I have looked at the drawing for a bit of time .. and I don't think it is that bad after all. Sometimes, building or designing, you get too used to looking at the boat really close up.

I can see one construction problem that I can fix .. just need to think a bit more about it.

MIK

Bump!

Ive been following for a while waiting with anticipation!

Is SoG still on the radar?

Also a quick general question. If you wanted to construct a boat like this rapidly like PDR mk 3 or quick canoe, can you use polyester resin and fillet with car bog?
If so, it would be pretty easy to knock into shape over a couple of weekends.

Originally Posted by tpb03

Bump!

Ive been following for a while waiting with anticipation!

Is SoG still on the radar?

Also a quick general question. If you wanted to construct a boat like this rapidly like PDR mk 3 or quick canoe, can you use polyester resin and fillet with car bog?
If so, it would be pretty easy to knock into shape over a couple of weekends.

While polyester resin and car bog might get you by for the QC, I don't think it's appropriate for other boats. Car bog doesn't have any strength so is useless for filleting and polyester resin isn't a glue and won't bond to timber well at all. If you use the right epoxy with the correct hardener, you'll have a very strong boat in the same amount of time, as epoxy is very quick and easy to work with.

Yes - polyester resin doesn't stick to wood reliably - it soaks down into the wood cells a bit and there is a bit of resistance to pulling the hardened resin out of the tubes.

With epoxy it goes down the tubes and also bonds to the cellulose - it actually sticks very effectively.

One thing that can reduce the performance of either is using too coarse sandpaper or blunt cutting tools that will break up the mouth of the wood cells so they become blocked. Never use sandpaper more coarse than 100 grit for sanding bare wood (US Forest laboratories) or blunt tools or old sandpaper.

MIK

So polyester is out.

I have used epoxy on my OzR Mk2, but was hoping to do a quick prototype build of a faster planing skiff (like the SoG) and use the foils and rig of my OzR.

Knowing the limitations of the materials, I thought that I might be able to get away with polyester and bog and use cheap exterior luan ply ($13/sheet) to do a quick and dirty build. (similar to MIKs quick canoe build). Then of I liked the design I could give that boat away and invest in a new build with marine ply and epoxy.

Well hey, if its not longevity you're looking for, but more of a look-see, I think that's a good idea.

However, if Mik publishes SoG, it'll probably be awesome, and you will build it, and like it and then have to build another one. If this is something you relish and look forward too, then great! If not and you are going to kick yourself in the butt about it then... use the pricier stuff and do it right the first time around.

Howdy,

I think you have to look at the actual boat. The Quick Canoe and to a certain extent the OZRacer/PDRacer and Goose are meant to be quick and dirty boats. Use 'em a bit and then give them away or you can build them with more care or a long lived boat that is not too precious.

With my more "flash" designs, like the Goat, Eureka or Beth, they really deserve a premium approach. The boats are so good and so nice to sail that they are worth investing some money in.

Also light weight is a large part of their philosophy and beauty is part of their function.

An additional point is that a sailboat is somewhat more complex with a whole bunch of different bits that it is so much extra labour it is worth setting the boat up to last some time. I would to choose some other ply than gaboon for a canoe, even the Eureka, makes somewhat more sense than making a similar decision on a sailboat.

In the end, everyone makes their own decisions, and you won't hear a bad word from me if they do unless it is something bizarre. Also it is a relative argument that I am making - but I would put a little bit of pressure on to build particularly nice boats out of nice materials.

And the functional boats out of functional materials.

MIK