Thread: Tacking the Spars on Balanced Lug ?

Duplicate blocks?

While you're duplicating things you might as well have duplicates of the sail, yard and boom. Solving the problem of storing those extra pieces will be easier than moving the sail, yard and boom on each tack.

Sorry TomH

I can't really see the need at all.

It will be a technical feat if you can pull it off in a simple and elegant way and I would like to see that - a potential step forward.

But if less than simple or elegant then a normal balance lug will sail right past you the first time you tack or gybe.

Part of problem solving is to correctly identify the problem you are trying to solve. I think you need to do that more clearly.

There are two threads with the name "lug rig heaven" - don't know if you saw both.

Best wishes
Michael

A development of the standing lug may be more what you are looking for.

Originally Posted by tommyboy

Has anyone tried (or seen, or even tried and failed) rigging their balanced lug rig so that the boom and the yard are transferred from port to starboard side of the mast on each tack (primarily when needing to sail hard upwind).

Since tacking upwind means there's full luffing of the sail anyway, with the sail loads being off I want to explore dipping the fwd end of the yard down and bringing it around behind the mast and out onto the other side. Similarly with the boom -releasing the downhaul and kicker - and bringing the boom aft and around behind the mast.

Anyone ?

Due to complexity of moving the entire sail aft, then back forward, then re-tensioning it
& re-tweaking it, there probably isn't one.

There was a uTube kicking about of a bloke who has designed a balanced lug held out away from the mast on struts. Name of Pope or similar? MIK would know.
The idea being to achieve uniterrupted flow both sides of the sail for maximum
efficiency on both tacks (which is. I think, what you are trying to achieve, yes?)
cheers
AJ

Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

Due to complexity of moving the entire sail aft, then back forward, then re-tensioning it
& re-tweaking it, there probably isn't one.

There was a uTube kicking about of a bloke who has designed a balanced lug held out away from the mast on struts. Name of Pope or similar? MIK would know.
The idea being to achieve uniterrupted flow both sides of the sail for maximum
efficiency on both tacks (which is. I think, what you are trying to achieve, yes?)
cheers
AJ

Think it was Hoyt......yep found the site here

Howdy,

Looking at the symmetry there are a few ways to do it.

As has been assumed do far ... change the side of the sail but the sail's luff remains the luff.

Changing sides so the flow over the sail reverses - the leach becomes the luff on the new tack.

Take the rig over the top of the mast with the top becoming the bottom but the luff remaining the same. Don't laugh straight away a couple of multihulls have been set up this way. They were solidly trounced in racing though.

The name of the guy who thought up that overly complicated lug rig is Gerry Hoyt. As soon as you imagine reefing it or trying to adjust it - or even hoist it - it starts to look very complicated and not particularly efficient as you have to adjust all the corners to make it work.

Hoyt is one clever dude, he almost singlehandedly brought unstayed rigs back for larger boats. But he is quite commercially oriented and often plans to patent and hope he can make something out of the concept.

Added later: so he has to give it identifiable features that have not been documented before. Enough difference to make it patentable.

I gave up when I started to see how much rope, wire, and ball bearing blocks were in it, plus the specialises weldments or mouldings. When I designed the lug for the GIS and the lug version PDR I thought ... we are going to lose some efficiency here so I will make the sail a little bigger.

As Mike (above) found out with his lug rigged PDRacer none of the sprit boom rigged PDRacers had his legs at all in light and medium breezes. Despite the crease in the sail for the lug affecting much more height of the lugsail than the horizontal crease for the sprit rig.

Best wishes
Michael

Any flow is good flow in light air, so the prudent skipper maximizes boat momentum rather then fussing with sail shape, which will naturally suck without enough "weight" in the breeze to pull out the wrinkles. In fact, successful light air racers are the folks that focus on boat speed and no unnecessary movements or actions (small boats of course) are permitted. Every sheet twitch and butt scratch costs some momentum, which in light air is precious.

I use to love heavy air sailing, but now I'm becoming fond of very light air sailing. Maybe I'm getting too old to get beat to death on a hard windward leg in a big blow. Actually, I think it's the "let's see how good you are at catching all the available air" mentality. You really find out who can sail and who just steers their boat, when the wind drops to a few knots. Anyone can look pretty good with a 10 knot breeze off your beam, but you have to have some skills to beat into 2 knots of fluky air.

Two approaches might work.

This viseo shows how the Bear Lugger rolls her sail over the top of the yard. Watch it a few times to work out what is happening. The sheet goes right round the outside of everything.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Gp71JdmPs&feature=related]YouTube - Tacking dipping lugsail No. 2[/ame]

The second method is how I get great sail shape in a breeze on both tacks. I have mentioned it before so hope I am not boring everybody.

The mast is quite soft and has stays. In stronger winds the amount of downhaul I use bends the mast away from the sail. It bends so far from the sail that there is no interference on port tack with the sail rigged on port tack. It works so well that if the race has a long port tack beat in a good breeze that my little boat is unbeatable.

No solution for light winds though. Agree with everything Par says. Sit still, keep boat speed going. I always sail too high and in strong tides can sail to a complete standstill with the sail still drawing. Mean while the ladies are off into the distance.

Brian

Hoyt. Pope. close.
There's an 'o' in it...

Following on from MK's end-for-ending the sail, I was strongly attracted to crab-claw
sails for something like that. One web-site showed a set-up on a very short mast.
A bar was to the fixed across the sail between the spars, just forward of the middle
of the sail, and the tip of the mast attached to the middle of this bar with a universal joint.
It tacked by flipping the sail over the top of the mast - foot becoming yard & vice versa.
The mathematics quoted 'proved' it to be a tremendously effective sail shape, or so it
claimed.

Three control lines - one to the centre of the 'U' to control rake / pitch, and one to each
arm of the 'U' to control sideways slope & sheeting angle. All 3 lines needed adjusting
on each & every tack. However, this also allowed it to be used as a sunshade in the
neutral over-head position, or sit mostly overhead & still draw enough to keep the boat
moving. An attractive feature in too-sunny Sth Oz, I can tell you...

But then MIK sold me on the simplicity of the balanced lug, and being an essentially
lazy animal at heart, and possessing both a hat & sunscreen...
cheers
AJ

Do you think Tommy Boy has popped a question and then run out on us?

MIK

Mebbe, mebbe not.
I see he also posted at length on the Cherry vs TS16 thread with some
interesting history. Even if he doesn't come back, it was interesting thinking
it through. Wouldn't want to bother for myself. Blame it on the polytarp, or
my failing to match spar stiffness to cut & wind, but I reckon Teal sails better
on the "wrong" tack than the right. Especially now with decent foils.
AJ

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Do you think Tommy Boy has popped a question and then run out on us?
MIK

Not run out, just working too much on non-boat-related.

I had seen the approach shown in the Utubes, but was concerned about gybing the sail around in front of the mast for hard upwind conditions - the sail getting pinned back against the stick, etc. Even more concerned that that is a boomless rig and that's not my cuppa. But, he does illustrate that rigging the yard is the lesser of the problems.

And... I love Hoyt. But he does tend to do with lots of structurally complicated bits, whereas I prefer the 'soft' solutions that might come from yarn (dyneema) and strops.

Brian's experience with the bendy mast is v.interesting - as it's hard core experience! Maybe a much simpler way to get the Hoyt results. Hey Brian, what'd you think of (1) offsetting the mast a wee bit to windward but still vertical in the boat, (2) pushing more of the flexibility toward the upper part of the mast, ans (3) arranging the boom tackle on the centerline?

And, thanks to all for their contributions,
TomH

Hi TomH

would you believe me if I said you are worrying too much. The lug rig is a constantly interesting and challenging rig anyway.

I guess offset things, work ok, just look at where my lee board is on the Shearwater - 20" away from the centreline. I suppose a few inches offset to a mast should not matter!

My mastfoot pad is arranged with 4 eyes bolted through it which surround the bottom of the mast. The two port eyes secure the dowhaul and turning block, the starboard side the kicker. I think this arrangement helps pull the boom away from the mast on port tack when a lot of tension is applied.



Brian

Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter

Two approaches might work.

The second method is how I get great sail shape in a breeze on both tacks. I have mentioned it before so hope I am not boring everybody.

The mast is quite soft and has stays. In stronger winds the amount of downhaul I use bends the mast away from the sail. It bends so far from the sail that there is no interference on port tack with the sail rigged on port tack. It works so well that if the race has a long port tack beat in a good breeze that my little boat is unbeatable.
Brian

Hi Brian, am I correct in understanding that this approach to the ballance lug rig in stronger winds - downhaul induced mast bend so the mast bends away and keeps clear of the sail on the port tack - depends on your lug rig having a carbon mast / and or the fact that it is stayed? As you've mentioned, carbon spars are quite 'floppy' up to a smallish bend limit, then quite stiff against any more bend. I'm assuming this and the stay setup mean you can get a certain amount of mast bend with the downhaul, but that it doesn't bend any more when a gust comes through.

I can imagine that with the more usual unstayed wooden or aluminium mast with linear bend, if it's flexible enough to bend with downhaul tension, the mast will bend more as a gust hits, and the sail will become fuller/more powerful just as you want the opposite to happen.

Ian