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  1. #1
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    Default Different Wood Types.

    When I was searching for timber to build my mast and spar(s) I came across boards for building saunas. The wood types Alder, Aspen, Hemlock and Linde or Lime wood. They are all knot free. I've heard of Aspen but not the others. I've done a search but the only information I can find relative is saunas.

    Anyone know whether these woods can be used in boat building? I'm guessing they would all be fairly light.

    Thanks, Kev.

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatdog View Post
    When I was searching for timber to build my mast and spar(s) I came across boards for building saunas. The wood types Alder, Aspen, Hemlock and Linde or Lime wood. They are all knot free. I've heard of Aspen but not the others. I've done a search but the only information I can find relative is saunas.

    Anyone know whether these woods can be used in boat building? I'm guessing they would all be fairly light.

    Thanks, Kev.
    I don't know anything about the timber you are looking at but I found this document to be helpful when researching timber species http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fpl_gtr190.pdf. A quick search indicates that it has some info on Alder and Hemlock.

  4. #3
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    Default Linde/limewood

    Linde/limewood is used for wood carving due to being soft and very even. I don't know if it is suitable for boat building.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flatdog View Post
    When I was searching for timber to build my mast and spar(s) I came across boards for building saunas. The wood types Alder, Aspen, Hemlock and Linde or Lime wood. They are all knot free. I've heard of Aspen but not the others. I've done a search but the only information I can find relative is saunas.

    Anyone know whether these woods can be used in boat building? I'm guessing they would all be fairly light.

    Thanks, Kev.

  5. #4
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    I am probably going to use aspen myself whenever I get a chance to begin building. I do not know if it is smart or not, but it is at least having the same bending strength as spruce. Aspen and linde are both used for saunas because they are well insulating (you do not burn yourself when you sit down) and they can stand moisture very well. The biggest problem is their vulnerable surface.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by engblom View Post
    I am probably going to use aspen myself whenever I get a chance to begin building. I do not know if it is smart or not, but it is at least having the same bending strength as spruce. Aspen and linde are both used for saunas because they are well insulating (you do not burn yourself when you sit down) and they can stand moisture very well. The biggest problem is their vulnerable surface.
    You also don't get splinters in your backside. Apparently .

    I found this site here ( Wood Species 1) that has quite a bit of information. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by putting this on here. I'm also wondering about glueing these timbers. I used Obeche on my Eureka and it was like putting epoxy on a sponge in some places and not in others. It was very inconsistant. It's very difficult to get knot free timber here unless you want to pay exorbitant prices eg.From one supplier for four pieces of Oregon (for my mast) 3m long 18mm x 65mm they wanted €72 each and a piece for the boom 5m long 45mm x 45mm €84 with €69 for freight. Plus they advise you to insure it for a further €25. Total €466. Hence I'm trying to find a cheaper way out and while this sauna supplier is not cheap their prices are the best I can find. Even rarer here is second hand or used wood. It just about all goes to recycling.

    I think maybe Engblom the epoxy coating would give some protection and any critical areas with glass mat added like for the boom and mast ends.

    Cheers, Kev.

  7. #6
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    I have a relative running a saw mill business. I have already told him to put aside pieces of aspen if he finds 5 meter pieces without knots. With his tools it is piece of cake to get the right dimensions. Aspen it will be for me.

    EDIT: I am sure aspen will be OK anywhere in the boat as the strength is less important there. For the spars, I am thinking that it is not completely terrible if they fail, I can always make new ones out of pine. The costs for the aspen spars are still pretty small compared with the whole boat. I think it is worth to try at least.

  8. #7
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    Wow having a relative with a sawmill is really nice.

    We are surounded by sawmills here but unless you are talking cubic meters they just tell you to go to a hardware store.

  9. #8
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    It's also important to thing geographically.

    As an example

    Fir grows in North America only. So every other place will have to import it.

    But Spruce grows in both Europe and North America. In both places it is a high class wood, so tends to be expensive sometimes unless someone is close to the source.

    However a few years ago as Eastern Europe opened up there were quantities of not quite as good quality spruce originating from those areas but much cheaper than the Scandinavian stuff.

    It's important to be aware of this with different locations. The timber in the timber list is only really to give an idea of the types of timber.

    Light and not particularly strong - maybe prone to being dented. Excellent for joining pieces of ply - deck cleats, seat cleats chine logs. Or in protected places for gunwales or even potentially bottom skids with hardwood veneer on the underside (boat right way up) - Western red cedar, paulownia, maybe spruce

    Medium strength - not prone to be being dented - good for unsupported structural pieces (basically when you have ply on two faces of a piece of timber it in never going to break as the ply takes the loads - but here we are talking about bits that glue to ply on only one face. Gunwales, frame arms, transom top frame, spars. Some pines, fir, in Australia Hoop Pine (not a pine but Aruacaria), King Billy pine (a lovely but now rare - not a pine but Athrotaxis). Some pinus radiata (nice stuff they grow in NZ - not the ugly plantation pinus twistus or pinus crapiata - its slang names in Australia) STraight grain is fairly important here and even more important for spars.

    Hard and strong - bottom skids (or a thin protective layer on the bottom of lighter timber skids) - outside face on gunwales. Hardwoods around the world.

    All have to be species that glue well because of our construction method. So teak, Australian White beech (Gmelina - had to look that up - obviously not a beech) True white Oak from North America - which are all hardish to glue because of oil content or with the oak an inability for the glue to get into the wood cells (or that's what I was told)

    So that's the scheme.

    Those are the three classes.

    MIK

  10. #9
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    After much searching I found a timber supplier advertising 6000sqm of storage with 30 different types of imported timbers and ply woods and only 40km from where we live. The internet site gave limited information and looked a bit out of date. It turns out to be an old firm run by three brothers who stock just about everything. One of the bosses took me out into the store and what is amazing is that the 6000sqm is full and the biggest percentage is rough cut. They will cut to any size you want. They have Oregon in 6000x100x50 and 5000x100x50, Hemlock in 5000x100x100 and Western Red Cedar in varying sizes. The Oregon lengths work out to be about €50 but it looks to be good clean straight stock.

    Now all I need is $$$$$$$$$$$.

    Cheers, Kev.

  11. #10
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    Hi Kev,

    They sound like the best sort of people - I'll bet they are hugely knowledgeable too. So they can probably advise what are sensible substitutions to make in terms of species.

    MIK

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    It's also important to thing geographically.

    As an example

    Fir grows in North America only. So every other place will have to import it.

    But Spruce grows in both Europe and North America. In both places it is a high class wood, so tends to be expensive sometimes unless someone is close to the source.

    However a few years ago as Eastern Europe opened up there were quantities of not quite as good quality spruce originating from those areas but much cheaper than the Scandinavian stuff.

    It's important to be aware of this with different locations. The timber in the timber list is only really to give an idea of the types of timber.

    Light and not particularly strong - maybe prone to being dented. Excellent for joining pieces of ply - deck cleats, seat cleats chine logs. Or in protected places for gunwales or even potentially bottom skids with hardwood veneer on the underside (boat right way up) - Western red cedar, paulownia, maybe spruce

    Medium strength - not prone to be being dented - good for unsupported structural pieces (basically when you have ply on two faces of a piece of timber it in never going to break as the ply takes the loads - but here we are talking about bits that glue to ply on only one face. Gunwales, frame arms, transom top frame, spars. Some pines, fir, in Australia Hoop Pine (not a pine but Aruacaria), King Billy pine (a lovely but now rare - not a pine but Athrotaxis). Some pinus radiata (nice stuff they grow in NZ - not the ugly plantation pinus twistus or pinus crapiata - its slang names in Australia) STraight grain is fairly important here and even more important for spars.

    Hard and strong - bottom skids (or a thin protective layer on the bottom of lighter timber skids) - outside face on gunwales. Hardwoods around the world.

    All have to be species that glue well because of our construction method. So teak, Australian White beech (Gmelina - had to look that up - obviously not a beech) True white Oak from North America - which are all hardish to glue because of oil content or with the oak an inability for the glue to get into the wood cells (or that's what I was told)

    So that's the scheme.

    Those are the three classes.

    MIK
    I have had problems glueing Tazzy oak,Would its oil content be the reason.?

  13. #12
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    Aspen is a poor choice for spars. Though it's light (about 25 pounds a cubic foot), it doesn't hold fasteners well, has poor rot resistance, doesn't bend well, tends to shatter with impacts, low strength, modest stiffness and high shrinkage, because it's a hardwood. It's a good substitute for Bass wood, if making models or carving.

    Ash is also a poor choice for spars. It's heavy (43 pounds a cubic foot) and usually has a fairly figured grain. It bends pretty well and is tough for it's weight. It holds fasteners very well, but isn't typically used in marine applications, except as trim.

    Western Hemlock is pretty much the same as Douglas fir and though heavier then desirable for spars, often used, especially in larger sizes. Eastern Hemlock is it's weak kneed cousin and not used at all.

    Lime or Linde wood is a substitute for bass wood in this country and has similar physical properties.

    Generally, you want to avoid the hardwoods, because of weight.

  14. #13
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    I do not really agree on all of points you said about aspen. Aspen is not rottening that easily. It is used in most saunas and would not be used there if it was that bad.

    That said, it might be a problem with more fast grown aspen. In some way I suspect the aspen is growing faster in the areas you are from and because of that having this kind of problems.

    It is very resistant against bending, as you said. Why would that be a problem? Everybody wants as stiff spars as possible. The bending force needed to permanently destroy it is about the same as spruce. This means that you probably get a more stiff boom/yard for the same weight and still having the same strength.

    I have some stilts made out of aspen. They are completely unprotected and they are outdoor in weather as weather. They have managed really well so far. They have had all kind of impacts too. Aspen is not shattering upon impact, but the surface easily gets some marks.

  15. #14
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    European Aspen (Populus tremula): 16% stiffer and 11% stronger then the common Aspen available in the USA.
    Weight: 27 lbs/ft3 (430 kg/m3)
    Specific gravity: .35
    Hardness: 370lbf (1,650 N)
    Elasticity: 1,406,000 LDf/in2 (9,700 MPa)
    Rupture strength: 9,430 lbf/in2 (65,000 kPa)


    Bigtooth Aspen (Populus grandidentata): Never seen this stuff, but it's in my data base.
    Weight: 27 lbs/ft3 (435 kg/m3)
    Specific gravity: .36
    Hardness: 420 lbf (1,870 N)
    Elasticity: 1,430,000 lbf/in2 (9,860 MPa)
    Rupture strength: 9,100 lbf/in2 (62,760 kPa)


    Quaking Aspen (Populus tremuloides): Most commonly seen in the USA.
    Weight: 26 lbs/ft3 (415 kg/m3)
    Specific gravity: .35
    Hardness: 350 lbf (1,560 N)
    Elasticity: 1,180,000 lbf/in2 (8,140 MPa)
    Rupture strength: 8,400 lbf/in2 (57,930 kPa)

    Black spruce (Picea mariana): My personal favorite spar material.
    Weight: 30 lbs/ft3 (480 kg/m3)
    Specific gravity: .38
    Hardness: 520 lbf (2,320 N)
    Elasticity: 1,610,000 lbf/in2 (11,100 MPa)
    Rupture strength: 10,800 lbf/in2 (74,480 kPa)
    Crushing strength: 5,960 lbf/in2 (41.1 MPa)

    Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis): Commonly preferred spar material.
    Weight: 28 lbs/ft3 (455 kg/m3)
    Specific gravity: .36
    Hardness: 510 lbf (2,270 N)
    Elasticity: 1,600,000 lbf/in2 (11,030 MPa)
    Rupture strength: 10,150 lbf/in2 (70,000 kPa)
    Crushing strength: 5,610 lbf/in2 (38.7 MPa)


    White spruce (Picea glauca): Small craft only, if you can find it relatively clear.
    Weight: 27 lbs/ft3 (430 kg/m3)
    Specific gravity: .33
    Hardness: 480 lbf (2,140 N)
    Elasticity: 1,430,000 lbf/in2 (9,860 MPa)
    Rupture strength: 9,400 lbf/in2 (64,830 kPa)
    Crushing strength: 5,180 lbf/in2 (35.7 MPa)

  16. #15
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    The spruce we have growing here is Picea Abies.
    The aspen we have growing here is Populus Tremula. (Which you already provided some information about)
    The pine we have growing here is Pinus sylvestris L.
    What people normally use for spars here up in the Nordic Countries is European Larch (Larix decidua Mill.)

    Do you find them in your tables so it is possible to compare them? As this is pretty much high up North, the wood here is more tight than most wood obtained down in Europe.

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