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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Meridian Idaho
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    Default NAF - Flute Makers

    Where the heck are you?

    Im a beginner flute maker.. Anyone out there wanna get this forum going?


    jim
    Turned Around in Idaho
    Jim

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  3. #2
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    Nov 2003
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    Australia and France
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    8,175

    Default

    you just did!

    P

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kyogle NSW
    Posts
    97

    Default Tips for beginner naf makers

    Hi Jim,

    I make flutes for a living in Australia. Do you want to learn more about flute making? Where are you at now with the craft? Have you completed any projects? How did they go? Do you have any books or DVD's on the subject, if not you might like to check out whats available at the Oregon Flute Store www.oregonflutestore.com and or just search the internet on that subject. If you are serious about becoming a maker for a career well then consider apprenticing to a accomplished maker. You'll have to sniff the right one out though, some can be funny or just down right paranoid about showing or teaching others things that have taken them years to learn. I think that stinks, I think these things should be learned in an apprentice fashion where there is an equal energy exchange and commitment. For an instrument that nearly became extinct around 30 years ago before a renaisance movement began such selfishness is against the preservation of the instrument and is usually about ego and money.

    Now as you may know there is the Native American Flute woodworking yahoo group which is really where you go first should you be a beginner. I suggest you set up a new email account, then join the group then just let the group email flood in to that account. Now heres the scoop, you can keep it as a data base and search it with the search function in your email account when you need specific info or guidance, otherwise you can post an enquiry and track the threads. As someone said in a previous post theres some real gurus there, and between all the members there's thousands of years of experience, techniques and know how, I take advantage of that and I am a professional maker of many years who has worked with some of the best Native and non Native makers in the world. You can't go past such a great resource.

    Here's my tip, If you want to be a good flute maker and possibly one of the best in years to come then you want to find the sound that is your sound and will be appealing to others and those wanting to record with this instrument. I suggest not screwing around here go to the best makers in your country, Colin Petersen (Omaha Nebraska) Ed Herbek, Pat Haran, Coyote Oldman, Guillermo Martinez, to name just a few, then buy a flute in a common key and take off the fetish and see how the sound mechanism is made. Eac maker has his/her own unique mechanism measurements and designs which may vary from flute to flute, the bird of fetish has alot to do with this too. The back pressure, the slow air chamber SAC and the style of cutting edge or fipple in the sound chamber are critical and of the highest importance in making a quality sound without raspiness or octive breaking or spluttering. Some of the best I've seen are the most simplest and use the routed channel in their flute and a flat block, a round SAC exit hole slichtlu ramped to within 5-8 mm of the back of the sound hole leaving the 5-8 odd mm and this is off the top of my head, flat routed not too deep but to keep suficient back pressure, this can be made deeper by files and carving tools if necessary, so go easy as it can be changed later when rerouting is no longer possible. Be warned there is a huge amount of rubish flutes that are nothing more than nice looking offerings to the God's of fire. Maybe try a few different accomplished makers flutes at shows or flute festivals etc.Try to teach yourself to understand the process by replicating the sound hole and experiment with voicing that design, it may take quite a few tries and a lot of screw ups to come up with something similar that works just as good or if you are very competent maybe just a few. Then you are well on the way. Don't be afraid to try something you haven't seen before and never get tunnel vision and think you know it all. There are no masters of anything just different levels of mastery. The guys at the Yahoo group will direct with voicing issues. Become a member of the flute exchange, where you make a flute for another member and they make one for you and then you critique each other.
    Botom line is this craft takes patients and gentleness and is more challenging than any beginner could ever imagine but the rewards are the same if not greater, never give up or become angry, if you do just walk out of the shop and come back later.

    I teach workshops to those here in Australia that want to learn to make their own flute and experience the craft. If I ever find someone who is really keen to begin the trade and they prove it to me I will teach them free of charge, well they can apprentice to me, but they have to be truly committed and know what they want and where they are going with it and that mans they like any apprentice must be prepared to work, chances are I'll never meet that person in this country but you never know!!

    I taught myself to make flutes from blanks from another maker, this is always another great way to get guidance from a particular maker, you pay him so you have a right to ask questions and he will answer them.

    If anyone would like to buy blanks in Australia with complete instructions then PM me.

    I hope this has been some help, look forward to seeing pictures of your flutes. I am keen to see more talk about NAF's here. I love them, they are my life and have changed it so greatly for the better, I owe this instrument much.

    Good Luck on the Journey

    Ps. Oh and did I say; be warned of the wall hangers, theres more out there than good ones.

    SpiritFlutes
    Always give yourself a safety brief before using any power equipment and stay safe with all your fingers intact. If any manouver ever feels awkward or dangerous don't do it. Stop and think a safer way around it. Never ignore a safety warning!!

  5. #4
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Blue Mountains
    Posts
    2,613

    Default

    Cool, a flute forum!

    Spirit, do you route out the insides of your flutes and then glue them back together? Personally Ive given up on boring long holes.

    Sebastiaan
    "We must never become callous. When we experience the conflicts ever more deeply we are living in truth. The quiet conscience is an invention of the devil." - Albert Schweizer

    My blog. http://theupanddownblog.blogspot.com

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kyogle NSW
    Posts
    97

    Default Routing V's Boring

    Yes it's exciting- a new forum.

    Well the name says it all. Despite a few positives for boring it is not easier, maybe a `lot quicker and thats why some do it, as quicker equals more $. The other positives are some say strength and some say the tone is better as well as less proceses and wear and tear on your saw and planer thicknesser and of course power.I have several flutes that are bored but tone differences with those and others of a two piece construction is not even noticable, there are many other variables of course. So despite being totally unrealistic in terms of the set up costs for the equiptment necessary to do it properly, that could only be justified if you were mass producing and mass production is anything over 500 flutes a year, it is un traditional as all the early flutes were split, hollowed and then glued back together with buffalo derived glues then bound with sinew. Other methods were using sumac which has a pithy centre which would be burned out with hot sticks. The beauty of splitting is you get to work the sound hole from both sides before glueing, tools canwork from top down without risk of damage to the inside bore as well as having a longer stroke for filing and cutting. I'll come back to the sound hole but here are my methods for routing.

    I have used 3 different methods. One is called a self centering jig. I built one at great cost and turned out to be a absolute complete waste of time, the thing was claimed to have been designed by a guy from South Australia whom I forget the name of now but the concept has been around for decades, and despite it's name would never stay centered, it would take anoying amounts of time to adjust then it as far as I can remember would never align with the other half of the blank, boubling the error, there was just too much room for slop and was not a tight jig in this regard. A mate noticing the problem and my frustrations that it was not perfect showed me the most simple jig which I have now used for hundreds of flutes. It is safe , quick once set up and accurate once you have it centered to the bit. It allows for bit changes without having to re align the runners of the jig that act as a fence to center the blank as you feed it over the bit. The runners of the jig are best made from Silky Oak or some waxy wood for smothness and minimising jamming. Fix the runners to the centre of a srectangle shaped 5mm ply board by sandwiching your standardised sized blank (34 mm for a 7/8" bore) They should be 5 mm under the hight of the blank halfs so you can get fingers onto the blank. The concept is the same as a router table though I have mounted a router under a desk recessed in to the underside to give it reach. Then the jig goes ontop and once aligned is screwed down to the bench and clamped.. it can be aligned by first screwing one top corner to the bench then clamping the opposite corner over the edge of the table, rout chech measurement, then adjust via the clamp til its centered then screw it down firm, if you dont it will eventually move especially if routing hard woods. I'll provide photos down the page

    Make sure the router has enough reach so that bits are seated safely deep in the collet. Any questions on that just ask. Core box bits can be bought from Mcjing tools in Sydney www.mcjing.com.au/
    if you cant afford CMT or other higher quality brands.The core box bits are best to buy in !/2"
    The other method is a commercial router table, which I use for drones. not as stable in terms of grabbing as the simple runner jug but just as effective if set up right. Never try routing backwards as its sure to grab, if you want to do another pass then lift it of carefully and start again. always be super fu**king careful with routers in general and especailly when using a table with a round over bit or other really grabby bit. Never leave room for error less your fingers don't mean a lot to you. Feather boards and jigs can make these processes much safer in they suit the job.
    The pics are easy to follow, I took them when I rebuilt a jig last. The beauty of this setup is you can have a jig for every size bore you do, then just fit and align when you need it, takes 10 mins to change jig.

    Wish you all well

    SpiritFlutes

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    St Georges Basin
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    1,016

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56 View Post
    Cool, a flute forum!

    Spirit, do you route out the insides of your flutes and then glue them back together? Personally Ive given up on boring long holes.

    Sebastiaan
    Some years ago I bought a couple of shell or standard lamp augers which are ideal for the job. I haven't looked for a while but I wonder if they are still available anywhere. They will drill a hole up to about 3 feet long in endgrain. To open out a pilot hole, use a spade bit modified with a follower that fits the pilot hole, usually just a bit of brass rod soldered onto the point of the spade bit.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Blue Mountains
    Posts
    2,613

    Default

    Thanks Spirit, work is about 15mins from McJings, can be expensive.

    Hi Burraboy, Shell augers work well for softer timbers but flutes are almost always made of hard, dense grained timbers. Dense timbers are needed so that the inside of the flute provides as little turbulence in the flute as possible. Turbulence equals muddy sounds. This is why people often remark on the purity of the sound of my PVC flutes, Its the smoothness of the material.

    Makers such as Terry McGee http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/ use timbers such as ebony bored on adapted metal working lathes. Out of my price range Im afraid.

    Sebastiaan
    "We must never become callous. When we experience the conflicts ever more deeply we are living in truth. The quiet conscience is an invention of the devil." - Albert Schweizer

    My blog. http://theupanddownblog.blogspot.com

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kyogle NSW
    Posts
    97

    Default Wheres JiminIdaho?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiminidaho View Post
    Where the heck are you?

    Im a beginner flute maker.. Anyone out there wanna get this forum going?


    jim
    Hey Jim, There's a few of us here now on this NAF Forum. Where the heck are YOU?

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kyogle NSW
    Posts
    97

    Default Gun Drills

    Quote Originally Posted by burraboy View Post
    Some years ago I bought a couple of shell or standard lamp augers which are ideal for the job. I haven't looked for a while but I wonder if they are still available anywhere. They will drill a hole up to about 3 feet long in endgrain. To open out a pilot hole, use a spade bit modified with a follower that fits the pilot hole, usually just a bit of brass rod soldered onto the point of the spade bit.
    My understanding is that most one piece borers who make flutes use Gun Drills on a converted metal lathe and a big one. It's been explained to me by Coyote Oldman AKA Michael Graham Allen and others who do it but even if I had the money and the space to do it, I would probably still rout bores for NAF's for reasons mentioned previously. However I believe it's fairly simple to rig up a short narrow under 13mm bore drill system for High flutes and penny whistles etc on a average wood lathe, I am not exactly sure how but I guess I would like to try it one day.

    SpiritFlutes

  11. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Blue Mountains
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    Default

    Been there tried that. I bought the shell auger, shoved it down the tailstock and drilled away. Seemed to go well for a while and then went skewiff. There must have been some variation in the grain and it sent it off centre. This was on Radiata Pine, I tried it on Jarrah and the progress was so painfully slow I got really bored (get it, yuk, yuk,yuk) and then it wandered off as well.... I was shooting for a 600mm length. Its a vintage Record lathe with a #1 mortise taper, but still I couldnt get a 6mm hole. Waste of time and money. Wouldnt like to think what would/wouldnt happen on desert ironwood.

    I reckon you need a great big metalworkers lathe.
    "We must never become callous. When we experience the conflicts ever more deeply we are living in truth. The quiet conscience is an invention of the devil." - Albert Schweizer

    My blog. http://theupanddownblog.blogspot.com

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kyogle NSW
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    97

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56 View Post
    Been there tried that. I bought the shell auger, shoved it down the tailstock and drilled away. Seemed to go well for a while and then went skewiff. There must have been some variation in the grain and it sent it off centre. This was on Radiata Pine, I tried it on Jarrah and the progress was so painfully slow I got really bored (get it, yuk, yuk,yuk) and then it wandered off as well.... I was shooting for a 600mm length. Its a vintage Record lathe with a #1 mortise taper, but still I couldnt get a 6mm hole. Waste of time and money. Wouldnt like to think what would/wouldnt happen on desert ironwood.

    I reckon you need a great big metalworkers lathe.
    So you found the boring boring. The name really does say it all.

    It must be all about the drill you use. Mark Hoza bores flute headjoints and quenas out of Cooktown Ironwood AKA Red Ebony, and no guessing how hard and dense that is, the name says it all. I have some and it's lots denser than Jarrah. woodenflutemaker.com/ I think anythings possible with the right drills and machinery. Dosen't come cheap. Would be good to know exactly how he goes about it though. Anyone have an idea. Mitch from Ozwhistles does a similar thing with his Hi D penny whistles using Iron Wood and other tough material.

    Has anyone got anything new and interesting to add to this forum specifically about making Native American Flutes NAF's, or otherwise any flutes. I think all this talk about boring is getting a little er you know boring and we could be waiting a while for jiminidaho to wake up so does anyone have suggestions to liven up the discussion so we might attract some folks here who should be here for good reason cause flute making is not boring. Just they don't know that yet cause they havn't tried. So lets make this an exciting forum.

    Spirit Flutes

  13. #12
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    May 2007
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    Blue Mountains
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritFlutes View Post
    So you found the boring boring. The name really does say it all.

    It must be all about the drill you use. Mark Hoza bores flute headjoints and quenas out of Cooktown Ironwood AKA Red Ebony, and no guessing how hard and dense that is, the name says it all. I have some and it's lots denser than Jarrah. woodenflutemaker.com/ I think anythings possible with the right drills and machinery. Dosen't come cheap. Would be good to know exactly how he goes about it though. Anyone have an idea. Mitch from Ozwhistles does a similar thing with his Hi D penny whistles using Iron Wood and other tough material.
    Spirit,

    Mitch uses a metal workers lathe. Ive used Cooktown Ironwood for fretboards on a few Mandolins. Polishes beautifully, hard and dense. Would make a terrrific flute if I could get a hole through it... oh.... did I say that already....

    We could also invite these other makers to join, do you know them?

    I'll leave this thread alone now as my interest is in whistles, recorders and baroque flutes.
    "We must never become callous. When we experience the conflicts ever more deeply we are living in truth. The quiet conscience is an invention of the devil." - Albert Schweizer

    My blog. http://theupanddownblog.blogspot.com

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Kyogle NSW
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56 View Post
    Spirit,

    Mitch uses a metal workers lathe. Ive used Cooktown Ironwood for fretboards on a few Mandolins. Polishes beautifully, hard and dense. Would make a terrrific flute if I could get a hole through it... oh.... did I say that already....

    We could also invite these other makers to join, do you know them?

    I'll leave this thread alone now as my interest is in whistles, recorders and baroque flutes.
    I put it out there, Welcome all NAF makers particularly in Australia. Sebastian56 I guess they will find us when they are ready, thanks to Jiminidaho we have a NAF forum and thats a pretty good thing. Most anyone now who searches wood work forums can now see that there is this obscure instrument that they have never heard of before, they can satisfy thier curiosity and research it further if they want and experience the true magic it has to offer. They can buy the music and theres heaps, they can buy the flutes, better and cheaper still, if they have woodwork experience they can make one.
    Now any woodworker or craftsman can tell you theres nothing better than the satisfaction of making it yourself. I joined for the community and connections and to share my knowledge. There may be next to no other NAF makers here now but in time there will be, the beauty of this instrument, its spiritual value and the times we live in ensure that.

    Spiritflutes

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    649

    Default

    Hi folks, Id like to make my first wood flute, but need a helping hand as to where to start. I have made plastic poly recordersbefore if that helps. Does anyone in australia sell starter packages

    Steve

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Meridian Idaho
    Posts
    96

    Thumbs up NAF - Flutes!

    Wow!

    I've been away for awhile, this forum has taken off!! I have gained some experiance in flute making and have made about 6 that have turned out to sound pretty good! Im investing in a lathe extention so I can "turn" them to even get a better sound.

    Fun Fun.

    Jim
    Turned Around in Idaho
    Jim

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