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  1. #1
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    Default Attaching Moulding to Lid End Grain

    My next build is a top-opening chest similar to a blanket chest. I'm going to edge joint two boards and use internal battens for the lid. The edges of this lid will come right to the edges of the box itself.

    Around this lid, I want to put a three-sided moulding, mitred at the front two corners, which will extend downward to form a dust seal and hide the seam between lid and box. Attaching the moulding to the front is simple, but the sides are what I'm asking about in this post.

    I know that using a sliding dovetail is regarded as the best approach but, simply put, I'm concerned about whether or not I can do this and get a good fit.

    Right now, the best option I can see for attaching this moulding is to glue the first couple of inches, where the mitre is, and then to use nails to attach the moulding along the sides of the lid. I would hide the nails with a traditional blind nailing technique whereby one uses a chisel to lift a shaving, leaves the shaving attached, drives the nail, and then glues the shaving back down to hide the nail.

    I believe that, initially, there is no reason this won't work. My concern is about longevity. If I were to put, say, 5-6 50-60mm long, rectangular, high quality "cut" nails over 400mm of end grain, are they likely to work themselves out in my lifetime? Is the lid likely to split in lieu of the nails flexing during seasonal movement?

    What kind of problems am I going to encounter if I do this?

    Also the wood I'm planning to use is QLD Red Cedar, if that makes a difference.

    Interested to hear folks' thoughts on the matter. Thanks in advance,
    Luke

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  3. #2
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    Instead of a sliding dovetail, how about a simple tongue and groove arrangement? As long as you have some face-face grain to glue, it should hold up fine.

  4. #3
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    Possibly pre-drill the nail holes and drop in a tiny amount of CA glue. This should hold the nails?

    Brian

  5. #4
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    Nails and a touch of glue in the right spot is how the old blanket boxes / tool box type were always done Luke . No other options really . You could skew the nails a touch . This way of holding the mouldings on the side only sufferers from the expansion or contraction of the top , or worse the warping or cupping . Being made of Red Cedar you have a nice stable wood , it’s unlikely to be a problem . The standard lid on those boxes I mentioned were 3/4” thick with the mould covering that edge and dropping down an extra 1/2” roughly I think . On some of the better tool boxes they had a frame added with a panel in the middle sometimes . So could probably be 1 1/2 thick at edge plus the drop .
    Ive got a collection of them out in the workshop, I’ll go have another look on the doubled up ones and take a pic if it’s interesting enough .

    I Just remembered . The better ones had cleats with mitered ends at the fronts . You may have meant that by cleats ? I was thinking you meant under the top with them ? They were mortised on with a sort of Tenon 1/2 mitered front join . The side moulds were nailed to those . They did a great job of keeping the top straight but the tops sometimes showed movement with a split in the middle .

    Rob

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    I would second the idea of a tongue and groove, you are basically making a narrow breadboard end.
    Personally have never used nails in any of my work and wouldn't recommend it, they allow little lateral movement and wouldn't resist the timber cupping if it was inclined to do so. Biscuits or dominoes are an aĺternative if you have access to either.
    A sliding dovetail is a nice idea if you can execute it well.

  7. #6
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    A sliding D/T would be the Rolls-Royce solution, Luke, but like you say, very tricky to execute to the level of precision you'd want to see on something like this. I don't think T&G would suit at all on the end of a a wide board, sure you get more glueing surface, but that's simply inviting a crack.

    As Rob says, some glue at the front and on the mitres, then pins along the rest of the piece (punched & filled carefully, they disappear to all but a close look). I'd use finish nails rather than cut nails, less 'give' in the heavy-section cut nails, but they would be more 'genuine' on a reproduction, I suppose. I've seen pinned mouldings on quite old stuff that was still sound after circa a century or so. In fact, the nails do seem to have enough give to cope with cross-grain movement without letting go.

    Cheers,
    IW

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    I Just remembered . The better ones had cleats with mitered ends at the fronts . You may have meant that by cleats ? I was thinking you meant under the top with them ? They were mortised on with a sort of Tenon 1/2 mitered front join . The side moulds were nailed to those . They did a great job of keeping the top straight but the tops sometimes showed movement with a split in the middle .
    Rob,

    I'm not sure I follow you with this part. I don't suppose you have a photo that might help me visualize what you mean?

    Thanks everyone for the input. I'll likely go with nails on this, or possibly what Rob suggests. The high quality cut nails I can get here (from Tremont Nail Co.) are pretty soft steel. I can bend them with my hands, so hopefully that's enough give to allow for movement. I feel like it might be a "give and take" scenario. The cut nails will likely hold better, but may flex less than wire nails, which may flex more but also be more likely to work loose over time.

    We shall see! The piece is based on one that my great grandfather built, and that would be at least 60-70yrs old. Its moulding was nailed on and it's still going strong, so here's hoping his luck bridged the generation gap...

    Cheers,
    Luke

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by homey View Post
    Possibly pre-drill the nail holes and drop in a tiny amount of CA glue. This should hold the nails?

    Brian
    A novel idea... A modern twist on an old classic. I might try this.

    Cheers,
    Luke

  10. #9
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    I agree with Ian on the tongue and groove. It has some merit on paper, but in this case the moulding board would not be wide enough to accommodate the "floating" breadboard situation which would be necessary to allow for more movement. I think in the long run, gluing the tongue into the groove would sort of be a "robbing Peter to pay Paul" solution.

  11. #10
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    Luke, attaching shelf-cleats, mouldings or whatever crosss-grain has given me much cause for thought over he years. I've had reason to think about it both for my own constructions, and trying to fix someone else's solution a few times. Two items from early last century that contain some good lessons in what works long-term & what doesn't are the ubiquitous cedar 'sideboards' ('chiffoniers' down in Rob's country), and Hoop-pine chests of drawers made in their squillions early last century. In my grandmother's day, it seemed like every house had to have at least one or two CODs, and a cedar sideboard was de-rigeur if you wanted to claim any social status at all. Consequently, there are still many examples of each kicking about. There is phenomenal variation in the quality of workmanship & material in both - some were obviously whacked together at minimal cost of time & wood.

    We have an old Hoop Pine COD that is an excellent illustration of what happens when you are unaware of, or ignore good practice when sticking bits of wood together. The drawer-runners were nailed and glued (hot hide-glue) onto cleats that were in turn glued and nailed across the 3/8" thick sides: 4a.jpg

    Four of these on each side had the effect you might predict: 3.jpg

    A cedar 'chiffonier' I was once asked to repair had cleats glued across 3/8" thick sides with no nails, but in this case the glue had let go before doing too much damage - I was presented with a flat-pack!

    OTH, I've seen pieces of similar construction but the cleats were simply nailed, without glue, into slightly thicker material (but not much), and no problems had arisen from that score.

    Another good example of both the holding power & resilience of nails was an old Silky Oak shop display cabinet I was given to recycle. The only 'adhesive' used throughout was about a Kg of 50mm bullet-head nails. The darn thing was as solid as a rock after 50 or more years of service, and required a good deal of effort to dismantle!

    It's examples like these that give me some confidence in the ability of nails to hold things together when used judiciously. Ever since I read about it in a very early FWW, I've followed their recommended practice when attaching mouldings, i.e., glueing the mitres and using nails along the rest of the cross-grain sections. The oldest piece still in my possession is a bookcase in Silky Oak (Cardwellia), which has been through some pretty severe cycles of damp & dry in its 25 years without any sign of stress so far. IIRC, I used 1.6mm nails spaced at about 75mm intervals. I drive the centre nail straight in, then skew the nails either side a little, then a bit more on the next, in the belief that this will both increase withdrawal resistance & ease any stresses from the cross-grain movement of the substrate wood. I copied the nail-spacing from a sound old piece I'd seen.

    Crown mouldings are not subject to rough handling, as a rule, so minimal fixing is adequate, but when applying mouldings to a chest lid, I think you need to be more careful - as well as an even wider length of cross-grain, you have to expect constant handling, not all of which may be gentle, so I think you are wise to give the problem good deal of thought. Trouble is, you won't know if whatever methodology you choose really worked, for some time.....

    Cheers,
    IW

  12. #11
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    Here is some tops Luke . I drew these first ones after thinking the pictures were not so good .

    I called the ends on those tops cleats before. That made things more confusing .

    Cleats added under the top were sometimes dovetailed in from one side to the other . We used to see German influenced boxes from the Barossa Valley in south Australia with those sort of cleats. Very nice .

    Never really saw cleats under tops on good English boxes though. Maybe some rough nailed up stuff.

    1,2,3 and 4 have an applied mould around three sides.

    3A and 4A could have the edge on the top moulded or bullnosed . And they wouldn't drop down to cover where the top meets its base .

    IMG_1547.JPG

    Below is some of my tool box lids.
    IMG_1534.JPGIMG_1535.JPGIMG_1536.JPGIMG_1537.JPGIMG_1538.JPGIMG_1539.JPGIMG_1540.JPG


    This below is a top I photographed 25 years ago that was in for repair.
    Its the same as 4A in my drawing . Hows the fox wedging !
    Goodness knows why they put the wedge in the middle of each tenon like that . If It had been wedged left and right out closer to the sides of each tenon the end wouldn't have come off.
    IMG_1548.JPGIMG_1549.JPGIMG_1550.JPG

    Rob

  13. #12
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    Rob,

    Thanks for the photos and diagrams. Always cool to see old joinery. The foxed tenons are pretty impressive, especially the fact that they eventually let go! Here I was thinking that that was the end all joint, but I guess time takes its toll on even the best.

    My lid will be the equivalent of diagram 1, but the skirting will extend down past the hinge point. The more I think about it the more nails are really the only truly reasonable option with the amount of meat that I have to work with, so seeing some examples where they're working just fine gives me hope!

    Regarding your photos, Ian, I guess it's good to see that even the old-time fellas made mistakes! I guess there was a time when people just needed furniture, and 100% of it was being made by individuals with their hands, so at that time I guess less emphasis was put on having your furniture last through two or three generations, and the focus was more on just getting it out the door. I could see that leading to some decisions, like gluing across the grain, that would result in problems like the ones you've shown.

    When I build dressers with drawers, I nail my runners into the sides. Based on everything I understand about nails, there's no reason to think that, given 200+ years, they would be the first thing to fail on a piece of furniture. I know that the mortise and tenon framework floating in a dado construction is better on a fundamental level, but I guess at the end of the day I'm making furniture that I hope some day someone will care enough about to repair, and when that day comes, I think they'll praise my forethought for just using nails!

    Anyway, I think I have a plan. Thanks a lot for solidifying my decision, everyone.

    Cheers,
    Luke

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post
    ...... even the old-time fellas made mistakes! I guess there was a time when people just needed furniture, and 100% of it was being made by individuals with their hands, so at that time I guess less emphasis was put on having your furniture last through two or three generations, and the focus was more on just getting it out the door. I could see that leading to some decisions, like gluing across the grain, that would result in problems like the ones you've shown.......
    I suspect 'all of the above', Luke. The necessity to make a living, and preferably a comfortable living has existed since humankind took to living in towns & plying trades, so finding ways to make things quicker & cheaper has a long tradition! I'm fairly sure most of the makers knew they were taking risks, but by a bit of trial and error got it sorted to the point that the inevitable failures would happen down the track. There was much discussion about the 'faulty engineering' of many traditional pieces of furniture, back in the early days of FWW. One bloke pointed out than many of the 'faults' were only discovered when effective central-heating became a reality, and the capacity of woods to move with moisture ingress/egress was fully appreciated.

    It's sometimes surprising to me what you can get away with, for a while, at least. Back in my early years I built a cabinet for our living room to house the hi-fi & all its paraphenalia. The material (Douglas fir) was chosen because it was the only wood available to me in the sizes & price range I wanted. I made frame & panel sides & doors, with tenons that nowadays I'd consider miniscule, but I beefed 'em up real good, by glueing the nicely-fitting panels in all round.

    A few years later, we moved to Ontario, where the summers are like Brisbane (hot & humid), and lived in a house with the old hot-water heating system. These do a great job of warming the house, but the humidity drops to near zero - you soon become accustomed to getting a nice jolt every time you touch a metal object. By then I had acquired a little knowledge of cabinetmaking & knew I'd broken some fundamental rules, so I held my breath waiting for the sound of a collapsing structure some night. But it remained stubbornly intact. The glue (an early brew of PVA) obviously retained plenty of 'give'. It was still in one piece about 25 years after it was made, but I've since lost track of it, and all I can say is, I'm glad I didn't sign it, 'cos I'd be mightily embarrased if it ever came to someone like Rob for 'repairs'. ...

    Wrt the foxed-wedged tenons, I'm not altogether surprised they failed in the case above. I think Rob was pointing out that they are placed rather oddly, a single central wedge has to work had to spread those tenons enough to get a really solid grip. And the wood looks old & a bit deteriorated, so both factors have likely contributed to failure. As my old pot did, & generations before him, I always use two wedges & make the cuts like this: Tenon wedge cuts.jpg

    As Rob says, a properly-done fox-wedged tenon should be forever, in fact that's their weakness as well as their strength, so to speak - ya gotta get it right first time, or there'll be many tears before bedtime! It's a joinery method I would like to use far more often than the 3 or 4 times I have used it so far, but the head-scratching to work out the widths & lengths of the wedges, and just how much slope to put on the mortise sides, and the angst when driving it all home! It's just too much most days. If the exit side isn't going to show, a through-mortise and wedges driven home after fitting is so much simpler & less stressful...

    Cheers,
    IW

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post

    Two items from early last century that contain some good lessons in what works long-term & what doesn't are the ubiquitous cedar 'sideboards' ('chiffoniers' down in Rob's country),

    We have both Sideboards and Chiffoniers down here Ian . The sideboard went from a 6 leg Sheraton piece to a 4 door with drawers above and a back over 100 years . The chiffoniers were 2 door, 1 or 2 drawer and a back . The main difference that I was told to remember the Chiffonier was by it having shelves 1 or more off the back sticking out and usually supported by columns or carved corbels sort of things .

    Interesting. That's how we called it, and a 1980s Antique dictionary describes it the same . But looking back to a book from 1938 The Encyclopedia of Furniture, a Chiffonier is described as (French ) A tall narrow bureau or chest of drawers. So the meaning changed or became re used for an English piece probably around the 40s or 50s? maybe later ? Which is around the time after the war when all the US soldiers went home and the rush to empty the UK of its packed massive accumulation of Antiques started . It was full flight through the 70s and 80s and died in the 90s .
    Also, We thought it was Antique. The English were letting go of what they though was their rubbish . Anything from 1837 onward roughly.


    Ive never tried building with those Fox wedges . I reckon you'd have to be doing a test run on some scrap to make sure you got it right wouldn't you ! Tears before bedtime , Lol , for sure otherwise.
    I have been hanging off the end of them trying to get things apart before . Cuss words flowing at the same time . At least when the tenon goes right through you can see the wedges and drill and chisel them out .

    Rob

  16. #15
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    Rob, what I meant by my remark was that what you folks call 'chiffoniers' in Victoria are just lumped as "sideboards" up here in less sophisticated country. I've only ever heard the term 'chiffonier' applied to summit like this in Victoria: Sideboard.jpg

    It's just another sideboard up here (but a little bit special 'cos I made it as a gift for LOML for a certain milestone.. )

    If you go back far enough, a 'sideboard' really was just a 'board' sitting on trestles beside the dining table, apparently, but then it got uppity & developed in various ways, in various countries, so yes, it gets pretty difficult to give a precise definition of what constitutes a 'real' sideboard. It's the same with 'dresser' where usage has drifted over the years in different English-speaking countries. I'd not want to get into an argument about the name of any particular piece - I just go with local usage when I can!

    Cheers,
    IW

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