Thread: how important are breadboard ends on table

Many many thousands of tables have been made with out "Breadboard" ends and have survived hundreds of years with no detrimental side effects, if you glue up correctly i.e. alternate the boards etc. you should have no issues

Originally Posted by qwertyu

Just wondering, how important are breadboard ends on a desk/dining table? I see many woodworkers on youtube etc use it, but many timber suppliers who glue bench/desktops for clients dont do it. I couldnt find a photo online on what could happen without it - only diagram. How often does the boards cup?

Is it less likely to happen with quarter sawn timber?
Is it less likely to happen with narrower boards? (eg 100mm vs 200mm boards)
Is it less likely to happen with really dry timber (eg old/recycled timber)?

AFAIK: yes, yes and yes, with regards to your last three qu's

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The table frame does a lot to keep the top flat via the aprons and rails. But when you have a significant unsupported overhang at the ends of the top, it is advisable to use breadboard ends here. Boards can cup, twist and warp overnight. It is terrible when a table is positioned near a window that receives the afternoon sun, and that is pretty common because people dislike living in dark dingy hobbit holes nowadays.

another question, would dowel or tenon/floating tenon help with warping?

Originally Posted by qwertyu

another question, would dowel or tenon/floating tenon help with warping?

In short, No

Nothing will prevent warping if your timber is not seasoned

Originally Posted by Kuffy

. It is terrible when a table is positioned near a window that receives the afternoon sun, and that is pretty common because people dislike living in dark dingy hobbit holes nowadays.

Here in Queensland we look rather fondly on dark dingy hobbit holes, since they are so immensely practical. Yet even here we are not immune from the trends of the civilized world. And thus dark dingy hobbit holes don't grow on trees any more.

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here's one with an overhang.IMG_0003.JPG

Love the proportions of the base of that console table Chrism3, is it one you've made? I've had an idea to make something similar for a fair while now, seeing that might spur me in to action.

Yes, made it about 6 months ago. Plan came from a Taunton book "Tables" by Anthony Guidice, although his overhangs were even longer.
( i sent Taunton a question about an error, but never received a response)

Originally Posted by qwertyu

Just wondering, how important are breadboard ends on a desk/dining table? I see many woodworkers on youtube etc use it, but many timber suppliers who glue bench/desktops for clients dont do it. I couldnt find a photo online on what could happen without it - only diagram. How often does the boards cup?

Is it less likely to happen with quarter sawn timber?
Is it less likely to happen with narrower boards? (eg 100mm vs 200mm boards)
Is it less likely to happen with really dry timber (eg old/recycled timber)?

edit:
another question, would dowel or tenon/floating tenon help with warping?

Cuffy made a good point about support. I used a breadboard end on a Shaker-style table because it was part of the design ...




Buttons on the inside, holding the top down ...



On a recent table, which used two boards for the top, it was sufficient to lock in movement (while allowing for expansion) with the buttons ...





Note: no dowels or biscuits needed to align or reinforce the boards.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I live in Ottawa ON Canada where we get cold dry winters and hot humid summers. I built, 2 years ago, a solid pine trestle table. Therefore no apron, and 16” overhang on the ends. The top is a glued panel of 6” wide, by 1.25” thick kiln dried pine from my land. Overall the top is 38” wide and 60” long. I put breadboard ends on and have noticed a 1/8” expansion on each side in the summer, and it totally contracts in the winter. I built the table in the winter months so its “zero” point is the winter. From this experience, and based on my climate, I will always use breadboard ends.

Kerfer, wood will always move in response to humidity changes, but it won't necessarily cup or warp. There are many tables in your part of the world, with plenty of overhang & without breadboard ends which have remained flat for decades and even centuries.

Wood is never 'dry' in the sense that it contains no water molecules at all. It reaches an 'equilibrium moisture content' (EMC) which is dependent on prevailing relative humidity. This takes some time, depending on the thickness of the material, & RH is never constant, so unless you live in a climate-controlled building, the wood is always either taking in or giving off some moisture as the seasons roll around. If this is allowed for by design & construction, and your furniture is made from a relatively stable wood (low co-efficient of expansion/contraction for a given change in RH) that has settled to the average EMC for your area/conditions, such movement is usually unnoticed. However, with breadboard ends you will certainly notice even a small amount of annual movement because there is effectively no movement along the grain & the breadboard ends serve as clear datum points.

Whether or not seasonal movement will also manifest as cupping & warping derives from two main causes. The most important is Species. Some woods both move little and/or absorb-release moisture very slowly so that their MC doesn't change quickly. Denser, harder woods tend to pick up & release moisture more slowly, but develop more power when they do want to move. Trying to restrain these with breadboards or screws or whatever usually results in tears before bedtime. Softer woods develop less power, so are easier to restrain, especially when kept to sensible proportions.

The second main cause is that most woods move more radially than tangentially (relative to the growth rings) for a given change in MC. In some cases the radial movement is very much greater, & so you will notice quite obvious dimensional distortion in these woods with seasonal humidity changes. If tangential/radial shrinkage rates are similar, & not high, there won't be much change in either the absolute or relative dimensions of a board, whatever its grain orientation, and you can get away with using wide, unrestrained boards with such woods (like the lovely old re-cycled 600mm wide Hoop-pine planks that I've just been playing with!). But if there is a big difference, and you use wide, plain-sawn boards, cupping is almost inevitable & whether you alternate grain or not, you are going to end up with non-flat surfaces. To get any stability with these species you want to use 'quarter sawn' stock so that shrinkage/expansion occurs symmetrically across the width & depth of the board.

If you choose unstable material, pay no attention to grain orientation and especially if you use heavy sections, your table top is likely to do strange things, breadboard ends notwithstanding. Choosing material that is known to be stable, making sure it is at, or very close to, EMC before you start glueing up, & observing good construction practices generally, are your best insurances against untoward wood movement...

Cheers,

When you use the breadboard end method, it is essential not to totally glue the breadboard end. The longer boards need to be able to move sideways.
When joining end grain to side grain the boards are fighting each other if totally glued.
If you look at a table with breadboard ends it is not uncommon to see the end does not exactly line up with the table top. There may be a poofteenth difference.