Thread: Coffee table - legs to rail attachment

For a good joint PVA glue requires the two surfaces to be in contact, and it will not successfully fill gaps. Posters here often discuss perfect, "tap in" joints when discussing M&T joints and similar.

The big question is, "How loose is the tenon in the mortice?" If the tenon is not in good contact with the sides of the mortice, I would use epoxy. The length of the tenon involved is such that wood movement ought not be an issue. Another approach (that I don't use myself but have watched boat builders use) is to take a shaving from an off cut with a hand plane and use it at the rear of the tenon as a shim. Glue both sides of the shim.

You now have a difference of opinion between Arron and me, which is fine ... unless you are a novice looking for advice. Hopefully, some old and bold woodies will give us their opinion on the subject.

Did not understand the issue with the router. Perhaps a pic would help.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

The big question is, "How loose is the tenon in the mortice?" If the tenon is not in good contact with the sides of the mortice, I would use epoxy. The length of the tenon involved is such that wood movement ought not be an issue. Another approach (that I don't use myself but have watched boat builders use) is to take a shaving from an off cut with a hand plane and use it at the rear of the tenon as a shim. Glue both sides of the shim.

You now have a difference of opinion between Arron and me, which is fine ... unless you are a novice looking for advice. Hopefully, some old and bold woodies will give us their opinion on the subject,

Fair comment. I based my recommendation on the fact that the op said the fitting was initially tight (evidenced by the fact the whole assembly could be lifted without the legs falling out) but only became loose through frigging with it. I find in that situation then pva still works as well as in the case of the original tight press fit.

Woodworking - lots of ways to do the same thing. In reality they will all work, especially in this job.

Cheers
Arron

Different opinions provide more information which helps me learn more. I decided to glue in two stages. Glued the end rails to the legs yesterday and will do the long ones today. I don't know if I will use epoxy or pva. I'll see what I think when I prep. As Arron said it isn't a big deal since it will just be in my living room.

The shim behind the tenon is something for you to test John. Thanks to this thread I know why someone would do that which is cool.

My main concern for the future is that I will be looking at the top every day and I am not satisfied with it. There is so much variation in the wood that sanding was difficult. The song with "Hills and Valleys" was running through my head the whole time. After flattening and resanding 3 times I settled for not totally flat and not as well sanded as I would like. I knew it would be a pain when I glued it up but I underestimated how much.

Originally Posted by Mnb

My main concern for the future is that I will be looking at the top every day and I am not satisfied with it. There is so much variation in the wood that sanding was difficult. The song with "Hills and Valleys" was running through my head the whole time. After flattening and resanding 3 times I settled for not totally flat and not as well sanded as I would like. I knew it would be a pain when I glued it up but I underestimated how much.

Making the frame in two stages is how I would do it.

What kind of finish are you using? I use lacquer and sanding sealer, and the sealer makes finish sanding a breeze. When I was a kid we had boats. My dad taught me to thin out some marine varnish and put on a "surface fixing" coat. Once dry, it could be sanded very smooth in preparation for the next two coats.

Originally Posted by Mnb

My main concern for the future is that I will be looking at the top every day and I am not satisfied with it. There is so much variation in the wood that sanding was difficult. The song with "Hills and Valleys" was running through my head the whole time. After flattening and resanding 3 times I settled for not totally flat and not as well sanded as I would like. I knew it would be a pain when I glued it up but I underestimated how much.

If you are not happy with the top then stop and get it sorted out. The dissatisfaction will not go away, especially as you get more experienced.

If the top is a softwood then you get different densities between early and late season wood, which is very difficult to sand flat by hand or handheld sander. You can minimise it by using better, newer sharper sandpaper, better technique etc but really it will always be there to some degree. My suggestion is to take it to a cabinetmaking shop, which should be able to put it through their drum sander for a minimal charge. That will flatten it, with just some very careful hand-sanding done to finish.

If the top is hardwood then its more likely to be your technique at fault. I still advise the drum sander. Acquire your skills in easy steps.

Cheers
Arron

Here's a suggestion regarding timber that does this high/low thing with the soft and hard grain.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZR2wg2jJ_y/

Might give that a try with some W/Red Cedar I've got. looks good.

Bendigo Bob - love it. Celebrate the nature of the timber I've thought of doing something like that with a box. One day.

So It's all glued - used epoxy in the end. I had used pva for the short rails as they were a good fit but there was one tenon in particular on the long rails that I thought might be better with the epoxy. So I used it for the long ones. It's something I've never done that I have now.

Arron, it was writing the post this morning and putting it into words that made me decide to do exactly as you suggested with the top. My technique is definitely the main contributor but the wood is a pain. I seem to have a talent for choosing difficult wood. It's Tassy Oak but with streaks of white, orange/pink and the stuff that comes out kinda gold with oil. Even within the width of a rubber or cork sanding block where I know it has all been sanded exactly the same amount the white wood sands down most and the gold the least.

That being said, I did perhaps get a little silly by using the top to learn to use a random orbit sander. With a broken dust collector container. It didn't go well until I fixed the container and then I thought well I will try my hand plane , I can sand it again if I stuff up. The entertaining thing is I got the ROS a year ago and have hardly used it for fear of stuffing up Yes well. It is getting close to flat now I'm taking a bit more care. I was getting so obsessed with trying for perfection with the boxes that I was starting to lose my enjoyment and trying to let go a bit was an aim of this table.

Once I got the hills and valleys it felt like I stuffed it. However flat, overall, with slight unevenness is far better than a visible (to me) dip in the middle.

I think I will add this morning that I wasn't as silly as I made myself sound. I got the hang of the ROS and figured out the dust was the problem I had using it previously. The hand plane would have worked well but I don't have the skill with it yet. The top was pretty good and the weather changed. I had it clamped down but not well enough I guess.

Arron, I considered a drum sander. There is a place not far that might do it but I want to do it myself if I possibly can.

John, what stage do you use the thinned varnished? I will probably use Danish oil. I've tried new things and learnt a lot doing this table but I think it's time to go the safe route now.

The thinned varnish was the first coat after the finish sanding was done, followed by sanding smooth and two full coats. If you have a bit of varnish lying around, try the approach on a scrap of timber. The thinned coat penetrates the fibres and when dry makes the fibres on the surface stiff and hard so they can be sanded smooth, a bit like sanding sealer.

Remember that for hundreds of years cabinetmakers got a dead smooth mirror finish without the aid of power tools or spray guns. Danish oil is fine if that's your choice. If you prefer you could use a hard coat finish and hand rub it to a smooth surface. You can hand rub almost any finish that is hard ... two pack ... lacquer (especially acid cured lacquer) and so on. Hand rubbing won't work on a finish that is soft/yielding.

When I wore a younger man's clothes a mirror finish on the tops of tables was a sign of wealth and prestige. These days the girls hate such finishes because they show finger marks, scratch more easily and, if a mirror finish, every speck of dust.

Don't let your lack of experience stop you from having a go. The first time I used a hand plane was on a large table top (1,550 X 1,550). It was far from a perfect job, but I got it reasonably flat and then sanded it flat and smooth using the approach found here ... Flattining TV table top?

Thanks John. I have it fairly flat again. Used a handplane and Random orbit sander, now I'm swapping between the sander and a bit of wood. I can't work on it tomorrow and I'm thinking that clamping it between bits of wood going across it like cauls will prevent it going out of shape again. It's been raining here but is meant to be sunny tomorrow.

Here are pictures.

I took the clamps off the frame. Haven't done anything else.

The top looked better early on in my opinion. Much of the darker wood has lost its pattern from all the sanding.

I don't particularly want a mirror shine but I think an oil varnish would be nice. If I thinned it could I wipe it on? I like the Danish oil but it does highlight any bad sanding .

Looking good! I do like quarter sawn Vic Ash.

If possible, leave the final finishing of the top until you have it secured to the frame. Then ensure it is flat and finish it.

How do you intend to attach the top to the frame? It is quarter sawn, so you have minimised wood movement, but Vic Ash (like most Australian hardwoods) is a timber that can move a fair bit with changes in humidity. These days I tend to fasten a frame to the top of the rails that overhangs them by 25-30 mm. Then I drill oversized holes (countersink them first so the screw is hidden) and use screws with a wide flat head (and perhaps a washer) to fasten the top, as per pic. This allows the top to move, but holds it flat. There are lots of other approaches, and hopefully you'll get a few more ideas. Just ensure the top can expand and contract a bit.
Table Top Fastening.jpg

Originally Posted by Mnb

The top looked better early on in my opinion. Much of the darker wood has lost its pattern from all the sanding.

I don't particularly want a mirror shine but I think an oil varnish would be nice. If I thinned it could I wipe it on? I like the Danish oil but it does highlight any bad sanding .

Never heard of wiping oil varnish, but am not an expert.

It is possible to apply lacquer, two pack or shellac by hand and then to hand rub it to the desired finish. I use lacquer because it gives a lovely bright finish that enhances the wood, and because it is a very forgiving finish. No need to sand between coats because it melts and fuses with the existing coats of lacquer. However, I spray my lacquer. Hand finishing is time consuming, and if you brush it on, there will be a fair bit of hand sanding/finishing.

I am a bit boring, using lacquer on nearly everything. It might be worth your while to go to the forum on finishing and to seek some wisdom there.