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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Samuel View Post
    Blocks can be a bit fiddly. Have you considered an approach that, I think, was mentioned earlier. Screw and glue 18 mm X 18 mm timber pieces on the inside top edge of the rails (aprons). Drill oversized holes through these members and screw through them into the top. Again, use button (flat headed) screws or similar so the top can move when it wants to. I made some coffee tables this way when I was a novice. Because I was ignorant about wood movement, I did not use oversize holes, but 15 years later everything is fine.

    I got lucky. I used low movement timber and because the tables are not very wide there will be minimal movement.
    I think I got my terminology wrong. That's what I meant.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnb View Post
    Yes. Failed to quote your reaction to stuffing around with the legs after gluing. I was going to taper the legs but I didn't think it was the right thing for them. They need something though. OK excuse done. I only rounded the outside. Since I am now over my self consciousness I will give you a laugh. I now have two legs still square, one with the outside rounded and one with a bevel/chamfer ? down the outside

    (Edit:they'll be ok though)
    As a novice I soon figured out that I should finalise the design before starting the build ... so only very minor modifications are done "on the fly". My temperament is such that my natural approach is to just start and to make design decisions as I go. That was far from ideal, and resulted in one or two jobs ending up as firewood. Now I draw everything to scale on graph paper and fiddle with the design until I am happy with it. That approach works far better.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Samuel View Post
    As a novice I soon figured out that I should finalise the design before starting the build ... so only very modifications are done "on the fly". My temperament is such that my natural approach is to just start and to make design decisions as I go. That was far from ideal, and resulted in one or two jobs ending up as firewood. Now I draw everything to scale on graph paper and fiddle with the design until I am happy with it. That approach works far better.
    You are absolutely correct. I can't draw but graph paper is a good idea that I hadn't thought about. I did have a basic plan and it was not following it that caused the trouble. After I decided not to taper the legs I thought of making a mock leg to decide if I wanted to do something else. That might have been a good idea but I didn't do it...

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnb View Post
    You are absolutely correct. I can't draw but graph paper is a good idea that I hadn't thought about. I did have a basic plan and it was not following it that caused the trouble. After I decided not to taper the legs I thought of making a mock leg to decide if I wanted to do something else. That might have been a good idea but I didn't do it...
    You are in good company. Many of us have learned that lesson the hard way. Sketching is easy with graph paper that has 5 mm squares. Just make every square worth 50 mm and you have an instant 10:1 scale.

  6. #65
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    John and Arron,

    First off - thank you both for taking time to help me. I learnt a lot and I enjoyed it.

    Thought I would let you know where things are now.

    Not much further in many ways actually. I was really pleased with the construction of the table; it wasn't perfect but it was square, level and stable. The top started off flat and looked good with the glue lines not noticeable. As you know, I stuffed up the top when I sanded and had to flatten it again. Well that happened again and on top of that I created curves in the legs when I sanded them. It was my sanding that let me down. Without the sanding I would have been really proud of my coffee table.

    So I have been obsessively learning to plane. Sharpening research and experiments and the same with set up has occupied much of my time. Yesterday I flattened the top with the hand plane but I don't have the skills to smooth it yet unfortunately. I love the way the colour and grain shine with a plane. I have been converted!

  7. #66
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    Pleasure. Glad you are happy with the outcome.

    Btw, I was going to say midthread that excessive sanding indicates that a process that went before was suboptimal. It might have sounded hypercritical, though.

    I guess the same applies to planing. Both are rework, not work.

    Planing does indeed give a nicer surface, although the difference once the item has finish applied is minimal.

    I think that when you take up a new hobby it’s the early stages of learning, when knowledge is being obtained in great leaps, that are the most exciting.

    Cheers
    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  8. #67
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    I seldom use a hand plane, but whenever I do find it strangely satisfying to watch those curled up shavings being formed.

    Is it possible you over-sanded it? I learned early to minimise finish sanding.

    Usually, I thickness the timber then sand the components before assembly followed by a light final sand before applying lacquer.

  9. #68
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    Sorry for the delayed reply, lots going on atm.

    You hit the nail on the head. I've been over sanding everything. The first couple of things I finished had significant scratches on them and I have overcompensated. I had issues with the combination bench sander leaving scratches because I didn't know what I was doing when I cleaned it and left a bad surface. The cheap sand paper I used at the time was also leaving scratches. I think it got me in the mindset of feeling like I had to sand more than necessary.

    It kinda clicked with the hand planing actually. I've been too aggressive with the wood if that makes sense.

    Too confused too. The lack of planning we were talking about with the legs comes into it, in that I just had at it without a picture of what I was aiming for or method to get me there.

  10. #69
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    No approach is right every time. However, just after I started woodworking I discovered I was struggling to tell the difference between scratches and natural texture in the wood. Again, I thickness everything, cut to size and get the job assembled as fast as possible, so the wood does not get much of a chance to move again. Then finish sanding is done before lacquer is applied. If the wood is open grained I might use runny plastic wood as a filler and sand that with 320 grit.

    I too learned the hard way to buy quality sandpaper. In reality it is no more expensive because it tends to last longer.

    Doing heavy sanding after assembly is asking for trouble, as you have discovered. With 120 grit I'll nearly always use a block, to minimise over-sanding (resulting in hills and valleys). If you must sand heavily a good approach has already been mentioned. Glue a strip of sandpaper to a flat board. Sand diagonally one way, then the other. Finish by sanding along the grain. This usually gives a flat finish and is an approach I used with a belt sander before I spat the dummy and bought a drum sander ... which is a beautiful thing.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Samuel View Post
    No approach is right every time. However, just after I started woodworking I discovered I was struggling to tell the difference between scratches and natural texture in the wood. Again, I thickness everything, cut to size and get the job assembled as fast as possible, so the wood does not get much of a chance to move again. Then finish sanding is done before lacquer is applied. If the wood is open grained I might use runny plastic wood as a filler and sand that with 320 grit.
    Wow, we are going to have to disagree again!

    My approach is to thickness and cut everything roughly to size. Then put aside to acclimatise for a couple of weeks. Once you’re sure it’s acclimatised discard any warped pieces and trim the rest to the appropriate dimensions. Don’t build straight away because you risk incorporating stresses into the final assembly.

    Finishing: i sand to 180 or thereabouts, then apply a sealer (in my case Rediseal). Then, with the grain raised and the surface hardened I final sand (to 320, cos I bought lots cheap). Then finish coats with no sanding between. Two weeks later, hard buffing.

    Obviously there are many different ways to the same result.

    Cheers
    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arron View Post
    My approach is to thickness and cut everything roughly to size. Then put aside to acclimatise for a couple of weeks. Once you’re sure it’s acclimatised discard any warped pieces and trim the rest to the appropriate dimensions. Don’t build straight away because you risk incorporating stresses into the final assembly.
    I only use this approach if I am re-sawing. Then it certainly is necessary to allow the wood to settle before planing/thicknessing.

  13. #72
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    I thought I had a reasonable handle on what are scratches and what is the wood but it turned out to be only a basic idea. Using the plane definitely helped with that, partly because I knew I hadn't created the results with bad sanding or sandpaper and because it highlights the wood rather than dulling it. I think I have a better idea of the possible goals now. I just was vaguely trying to get it smooth before.

    My sanding skill is behind the level of my other ones. I had so much to learn when I was first doing the boxes (trying to get a box with mitred corners taught me the basics of having flat faces and square ends, then edges came into it and consistent thickness etc) that I had done a lot of work with wood before I produced a box that was worth gluing up. Then I jumped right into cutting the top off and doing book matched floating panels for the lids and I had only finished two boxes.

    I learnt to sand before assembly but I knew my sanding was bad so with the table I didn't want to risk stuffing up and trying to glue up with parts I sanded out of square. I stuffed up but in a way it worked - the table has weird looking legs but it stands flat and square ��

    Edit:
    Will reply to other comments when time

  14. #73
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    Hey guys. I have started post a couple of times but haven't managed to finish. I have my woodworking setup in my parents garage - I have about half - so I'm around to help them. Dad has Parkinson's and the early stages of dementia. At the beginning of the week he had a fall and broke his collarbone, he had a bad reaction to the pain killers too. So it's been a bit crazy.

    I have been doing woodworking as well though. I am making a second coffee table to put into practice what I have learnt. I have the legs made (thinner pieces glued), cut and squared (actually this is the second set because I didn't like the first) and marked for the mortises, the rails are cut to length and the top is made. I have sanded the two faces of the legs that won't be tapered to 120 grit and they are still straight!!!

    I sanded the top to 240 mainly with the Random Orbit Sander though I don't have disks between 120 and 240 so I hand sanded in between. With a cork block. The finishing thread reminded me about that when I was even more confused about sanding than I am now. I have avoided the hills and valleys and apart from one edge being slightly high because I didn't start far enough over with the sander (I think) it is flat!!! I feel like I didn't sand enough at the first grit but since I habitually over sand I'm leaving it alone. I still don't really know.

    I have also spent a little bit of each time trying to sort out the legs of the initial table. It's a bastard but it is looking better. I had to get rid of a lot material to get them all as thin as whichever one had the worst curve in each face . I'm close now. The two faces on each leg that face outward have a gradual curve from the top and then go straight down and the two inside faces have a taper from the rails. (So it looks like they're tapered on four sides but two have a taper that curves at first. I'm not making sense even though this was an edit to explain more clearly) They are much thinner now but so is the top . I didn't think to take a picture.

    I will have to try to make some sort of a template to get them reasonably consistent I think.

    Babbled enough for the moment but I will probably ask for advice again
    Last edited by Mnb; 28th October 2017 at 05:49 PM. Reason: Clarity

  15. #74
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    Sounds like you are in good shape. Have fun!

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