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29th September 2017, 07:38 PM #61Senior Member
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30th September 2017, 12:52 PM #62... and this too shall pass away ...
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As a novice I soon figured out that I should finalise the design before starting the build ... so only very minor modifications are done "on the fly". My temperament is such that my natural approach is to just start and to make design decisions as I go. That was far from ideal, and resulted in one or two jobs ending up as firewood. Now I draw everything to scale on graph paper and fiddle with the design until I am happy with it. That approach works far better.
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30th September 2017, 04:09 PM #63Senior Member
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You are absolutely correct. I can't draw but graph paper is a good idea that I hadn't thought about. I did have a basic plan and it was not following it that caused the trouble. After I decided not to taper the legs I thought of making a mock leg to decide if I wanted to do something else. That might have been a good idea but I didn't do it...
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30th September 2017, 04:25 PM #64... and this too shall pass away ...
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19th October 2017, 06:02 PM #65Senior Member
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John and Arron,
First off - thank you both for taking time to help me. I learnt a lot and I enjoyed it.
Thought I would let you know where things are now.
Not much further in many ways actually. I was really pleased with the construction of the table; it wasn't perfect but it was square, level and stable. The top started off flat and looked good with the glue lines not noticeable. As you know, I stuffed up the top when I sanded and had to flatten it again. Well that happened again and on top of that I created curves in the legs when I sanded them. It was my sanding that let me down. Without the sanding I would have been really proud of my coffee table.
So I have been obsessively learning to plane. Sharpening research and experiments and the same with set up has occupied much of my time. Yesterday I flattened the top with the hand plane but I don't have the skills to smooth it yet unfortunately. I love the way the colour and grain shine with a plane. I have been converted!
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20th October 2017, 09:45 AM #66GOLD MEMBER
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Pleasure. Glad you are happy with the outcome.
Btw, I was going to say midthread that excessive sanding indicates that a process that went before was suboptimal. It might have sounded hypercritical, though.
I guess the same applies to planing. Both are rework, not work.
Planing does indeed give a nicer surface, although the difference once the item has finish applied is minimal.
I think that when you take up a new hobby it’s the early stages of learning, when knowledge is being obtained in great leaps, that are the most exciting.
Cheers
ArronApologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.
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20th October 2017, 10:30 AM #67... and this too shall pass away ...
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I seldom use a hand plane, but whenever I do find it strangely satisfying to watch those curled up shavings being formed.
Is it possible you over-sanded it? I learned early to minimise finish sanding.
Usually, I thickness the timber then sand the components before assembly followed by a light final sand before applying lacquer.
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21st October 2017, 11:47 AM #68Senior Member
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Sorry for the delayed reply, lots going on atm.
You hit the nail on the head. I've been over sanding everything. The first couple of things I finished had significant scratches on them and I have overcompensated. I had issues with the combination bench sander leaving scratches because I didn't know what I was doing when I cleaned it and left a bad surface. The cheap sand paper I used at the time was also leaving scratches. I think it got me in the mindset of feeling like I had to sand more than necessary.
It kinda clicked with the hand planing actually. I've been too aggressive with the wood if that makes sense.
Too confused too. The lack of planning we were talking about with the legs comes into it, in that I just had at it without a picture of what I was aiming for or method to get me there.
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22nd October 2017, 01:23 PM #69... and this too shall pass away ...
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No approach is right every time. However, just after I started woodworking I discovered I was struggling to tell the difference between scratches and natural texture in the wood. Again, I thickness everything, cut to size and get the job assembled as fast as possible, so the wood does not get much of a chance to move again. Then finish sanding is done before lacquer is applied. If the wood is open grained I might use runny plastic wood as a filler and sand that with 320 grit.
I too learned the hard way to buy quality sandpaper. In reality it is no more expensive because it tends to last longer.
Doing heavy sanding after assembly is asking for trouble, as you have discovered. With 120 grit I'll nearly always use a block, to minimise over-sanding (resulting in hills and valleys). If you must sand heavily a good approach has already been mentioned. Glue a strip of sandpaper to a flat board. Sand diagonally one way, then the other. Finish by sanding along the grain. This usually gives a flat finish and is an approach I used with a belt sander before I spat the dummy and bought a drum sander ... which is a beautiful thing.
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22nd October 2017, 01:57 PM #70GOLD MEMBER
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Wow, we are going to have to disagree again!
My approach is to thickness and cut everything roughly to size. Then put aside to acclimatise for a couple of weeks. Once you’re sure it’s acclimatised discard any warped pieces and trim the rest to the appropriate dimensions. Don’t build straight away because you risk incorporating stresses into the final assembly.
Finishing: i sand to 180 or thereabouts, then apply a sealer (in my case Rediseal). Then, with the grain raised and the surface hardened I final sand (to 320, cos I bought lots cheap). Then finish coats with no sanding between. Two weeks later, hard buffing.
Obviously there are many different ways to the same result.
Cheers
ArronApologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.
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22nd October 2017, 02:53 PM #71... and this too shall pass away ...
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23rd October 2017, 10:15 AM #72Senior Member
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I thought I had a reasonable handle on what are scratches and what is the wood but it turned out to be only a basic idea. Using the plane definitely helped with that, partly because I knew I hadn't created the results with bad sanding or sandpaper and because it highlights the wood rather than dulling it. I think I have a better idea of the possible goals now. I just was vaguely trying to get it smooth before.
My sanding skill is behind the level of my other ones. I had so much to learn when I was first doing the boxes (trying to get a box with mitred corners taught me the basics of having flat faces and square ends, then edges came into it and consistent thickness etc) that I had done a lot of work with wood before I produced a box that was worth gluing up. Then I jumped right into cutting the top off and doing book matched floating panels for the lids and I had only finished two boxes.
I learnt to sand before assembly but I knew my sanding was bad so with the table I didn't want to risk stuffing up and trying to glue up with parts I sanded out of square. I stuffed up but in a way it worked - the table has weird looking legs but it stands flat and square ��
Edit:
Will reply to other comments when time
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28th October 2017, 05:43 PM #73Senior Member
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Hey guys. I have started post a couple of times but haven't managed to finish. I have my woodworking setup in my parents garage - I have about half - so I'm around to help them. Dad has Parkinson's and the early stages of dementia. At the beginning of the week he had a fall and broke his collarbone, he had a bad reaction to the pain killers too. So it's been a bit crazy.
I have been doing woodworking as well though. I am making a second coffee table to put into practice what I have learnt. I have the legs made (thinner pieces glued), cut and squared (actually this is the second set because I didn't like the first) and marked for the mortises, the rails are cut to length and the top is made. I have sanded the two faces of the legs that won't be tapered to 120 grit and they are still straight!!!
I sanded the top to 240 mainly with the Random Orbit Sander though I don't have disks between 120 and 240 so I hand sanded in between. With a cork block. The finishing thread reminded me about that when I was even more confused about sanding than I am now. I have avoided the hills and valleys and apart from one edge being slightly high because I didn't start far enough over with the sander (I think) it is flat!!! I feel like I didn't sand enough at the first grit but since I habitually over sand I'm leaving it alone. I still don't really know.
I have also spent a little bit of each time trying to sort out the legs of the initial table. It's a bastard but it is looking better. I had to get rid of a lot material to get them all as thin as whichever one had the worst curve in each face . I'm close now. The two faces on each leg that face outward have a gradual curve from the top and then go straight down and the two inside faces have a taper from the rails. (So it looks like they're tapered on four sides but two have a taper that curves at first. I'm not making sense even though this was an edit to explain more clearly) They are much thinner now but so is the top . I didn't think to take a picture.
I will have to try to make some sort of a template to get them reasonably consistent I think.
Babbled enough for the moment but I will probably ask for advice againLast edited by Mnb; 28th October 2017 at 05:49 PM. Reason: Clarity
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30th October 2017, 09:21 AM #74... and this too shall pass away ...
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Sounds like you are in good shape. Have fun!
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