Thread: Construction considerations for Sideboard - Advice appreciated

In order of preference:

1. Full blind dovetails (you know you want to! )

2. Mitres with either a spline or dominos.

3. Half blind dovetails, with top flat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Well, I'll stir the pot a bit...

Designs like you've shown are in every way 'modern', sleek and attractive BUT, they are really best suited to modern manufactured boards that stay dead flat whilst you cut out all your joints & get it together. I've only had the nerve to do full-blinds on smallish stuff, so I'll admit I'm a bit of a coward; the thought of doing full-blinds on a large piece, & getting everything perfect and fitted before the weather changed & my boards decided to cup a bit one way or the other would have me on tenterhooks the whole time! Full-blinds need to be really spot-on to work, or you'll end up with some nasty gaps or planed-off edges spoiling the whole thing.

I suppose I'm thinking like an amateur, who until retirement, had to extend a project like yours over many weekends, so wood movement was always my enemy. If I had to make something like that, I would consider using Hoop pine for the carcase, with through dovetails all round, then hammer-veneering the show-wood onto that (with through, or even half-blind d/ts you can usually press out a bit of cupping quite easily at assembly).

I've seen a couple of old desks done in softwood, with through d/ts all round, then veneered over. Neither had an internal 'balance' veneer, & both were quite sound, despite being at least 100 years old. I'd even be tempted to use manufactured board, either pre-veneered, or veneered after basic assembly, for carcase as well as the doors, much as it goes against my grain!

Cheers,

Thanks both of you for the replies.

This is a directed piece on request from someone else who wants a solid wood piece in the modern style. I explained that most are done using manufactured boards. But i'd still like to give it a red hot go. It's not for a few months anyway so plenty of time for planning and so on.

I was planning on using a veneered board for the doors regardless only due to the unsupported nature of these doors I can't risk them moving.

Cheers.

On the doors, definitely veneered with oak edging.

If you were to do this through dovetailed, it would certainly show it off. I use oak a lot and once oiled the end grain pops right up. My thoughts though, being a very modern design, that the DT's will not really work. Perhaps keep it as a mitred join with dominos - if not, half blind DT's. That would look pretty good if you kept them smaller.

The drawers though need to be dovetailed.

Have you studied the original by Kate?

Thanks woodPixel. No I haven't studied hers. Only just the photos. They were passed on from the client. The only similarities my design shares is the mitered carcass. The one to be built has three doors, drawers in the two right hand cupboards, drawers above the cupboards.

Cheers.

If you are going for top quality and using Solid construction . I would be doing the through dovetails . Otherwise it may as well be veneered board. Solid and DT joins will look great. The Drawers can be solid as well . And so can the doors but they will be a little bit more work than a veneered and edged manufactured board, which would let the whole thing down I reckon .
You would have to select some Oak and cut it into strips to do a solid core where all the strips are 1/4 sawn and glued together. Thickness it down to 12mm. To that solid core you could either biscuit on a mitered frame of Oak or just do a top and bottom end. And then using sawn veneers at 4mm , veneer it both sides. The frames or ends would want to be well biscuited and Id use a two pack glue for the lot .

Rob

One option is to make the doors out of 12 mm MDF that has been lipped with an inch of timber all round and then put shop cut veneers with a finished size of about 2 mm over that. This will give you a stable door with the grain running all the way to the edge. Lipped board gives a nice strong edge that is very tough and which is unlikely to chip or be damaged in such a way that it is not easily repairable. Another advantage is that you should be able to book-leaf the veneers so each door is a mirror image of the other.

Yet another option is to veneer not only the doors but also the drawer fronts. That way you should be able to match the grain all the way across the front of the unit, if that's a look you like.

Another alternative is to veneer the MDF and then to set that into a frame. However, that gives an entirely different look, and my guess is that for this piece you want the grain running all the way to the edge.

Like Ian, I flinch when I think about mitred corners and wood movement. My skills are not good enough to make a nice clean mitred joint like the ones in the pic, but your skills are clearly superior. If you use quarter cut boards you should minimise movement

You have lots of options. Good luck with your choices and with the build.

I am not a professional fine furniture maker, but I believe the whole "solid timber is better than veneer" argument is wrong.

High quality timber is a precious and often diminishing resource. To simply waste it because "the client can pay for it" doesn't make it right.

If it's used as part of the design, say through DTs, then use it, but if you don't need it, save it. A 19mm board is still 19mm if it's 100% oak or 80% MDF. It sounds the same, looks the same, but performs dramatically differently - movement!

I also don't buy into the longevity argument. Post Modern furniture isn't designed to last 4 generations. Nor was something made 100 years ago. Just because it survived doesn't attest to its magical construction - only its appeal, perhaps it survived is the fact it was largely unused/ignored. I'm not suggesting great manufacturing processes shouldn't be used, just that furniture has fashion no different to haircuts, cars or clothing. Once it's is unloved, it goes out onto the nature strip.

Only this week I read a thread where someone said something like brown furniture has $0 value. It might be fantastically made, but it's less than worthless to retail unless it's truly exceptional. One poster has beautifully French polished a piece yet acknowledged they'd be lucky to get $200 for it.

I also think furniture is incredibly cheap. Even an art cabinet like this by the OP, which might cost the buyer 10k, is cheap. Compare it to a car, or house or the price of the plants in your garden.

It is sexy and will create conversation... But in 50 years time?

Im of the opinion you use as much skill, technique and care as you always can - and use good materials. Veneering offers valuable materials a new opportunity to really shine.

Thanks all for the considerations.

Quick question. Is a fully blind dovetail the same as a mitred dovetail? If so, what is this joint I came across, which the author called a fully blind dovetail

IMG_0297.JPG

If not, what is the difference please between a fully blind and a mitred dovetail?

cheers

Fully blind as you have pictured fits into what I believe is actually a rabbet rather than what I have attached which is the miter. Could be wrong though.
download.jpg

Originally Posted by Lappa

Quick question. Is a fully blind dovetail the same as a mitred dovetail? If so, what is this joint I came across, which the author called a fully blind dovetail...

Lappa, "full blind" to me simply means the dovetail are completely hidden, as opposed to "half-blind", where they are visible from the side but not from the front. How you bury the dovetails may vary. The ones I've seen done, and the ones I've made myself are cut so they look like a mitred joint when assembled. Don't think I've seen full blinds done like the one in your pic. No reason why you shouldn't do them like that, but it doesn't look as neat, to me...

Cheers,

Thanks IanW. Makes sense. i have more commonly seen the mitred version. As you say - looks neater.
The guy that details the one in the picture, which he said is a full-blind, also details the mitre version which he calls a "secret miter dovetail".

Ive seen mitred dovetail joints in sashimono. They are completly amazing.

The guys lay the board down, mark it out and bang out the entire joint in less time than I make a tea. It fits together with perfection.

This is a terrible video, but shows it at 6:20 https://youtu.be/cNzasdoqiwI?t=378

Edit: I've been thinking about this. The hidden art of this method is its only the outside of the mitre that needs to match. If the DTs are too "long" they can be just trimmed back. This can be done with a plane on a shooting board. I think "we think" it needs to be 100% perfect inside. Its does not. Whereas an exterior, seen, DT needs perfection (because you'll see every gap) the hidden interior one of a mitred DT can be as rough as guts. If you get close enough most of the time, its is just as good as one that is perfect. It is only the artist who will ever see it.

When I get my new lanes (when, being the keyword, Axminster) then I think Id like to give this a crack.

Hurcorh, advise us of your plans!