Thread: Construction / Joinery assistance

It seems the shelves top and base have not been rebated into the sides so i would say the secondary pieces on the outside are there just to hide fixings and no doubt add a lot of weight to the unit. if i was asked to reproduce it i would definately do away with them and maybe veneer the sides after the unit is together.
It looks like an interesting project for you, hope you enjoy it.

Agree deleting the double panel would make the unit easier to construct, but loosing the rebates will significantly change the style of the piece.

A bit more about Art Deco. I'm quoting here from Art Deco Design Style: Origins, History, Characteristics

"Art Deco designs are characterized by trapezoidal, zigzagged, and triangular shapes, chevron patterns, stepped forms, sweeping curves and sunburst motifs"

so for the cabinet I'm designing I'm keen to keep the stepped form BUT I'd like to avoid using solid wood panels 35 to 40 mm thick.

Do you think these sides are removable? It wouldn't surprise me if these small apartment cabinets wouldn't double up as a work table. A light lift on the side disengages the holding pins, remove the side and slide into a slot in the front. Presto, instant desk for a cramped apartment.

I saw some of these in New York.

In this cabinet I think it literally is what you see. The maker has rebated the edge of a second piece and glued it on. As DoubleD says, the shelves are not supported with a pin or rebate, so they are screwed in from the sides.

It suits the Art Deco style of doing things with layers to create dimentionality.

It could be more complex, but like Occams Razor, the simplest answer is usually correct.

Missed this one - I'm busy helping my wife hold an art exhibition (me being the grunt etc.) with the opening tonight, so this response is in haste.

When we lived in Sydney in the 80's this kind of furniture was becoming available on the second hand market. I believe the sides and top are double-layered, not rebated - the lower right hand edge shows figure going in opposite directions. That is the kind of construction that I saw in a few pieces back then. I'm not sure where the evidence for believing the shelves aren't rebated is. It would be normal to rebate all except the front edge to give that clean line.

The factory-made pieces of this period that I saw were often made of plywood with the choice veneers reserved for faces and solid timber planted on the front edges. The only solid timber examples were usually individual craftsman's one-offs for their own house or family. The piece pictured looks factory-made to me.

I hope this is some help.

Hi Ian

I cannot see anything complex in this one. In fact, it looks as if it was designed for mass production - it could be all butt joints and Dominos. The second skin is simply a design add-on, and has no part of the construction. Ply- or MDF with veneer.

I imagine the drawers run on either metal or wood slides.

Overall, a nicely dressed up box.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That looks to be a Euro piece possibly French . The only thing that tells me that is the look of the lock , the mid placement of the escutcheon in the drawers because of the lock type . That type of fall front cabinet was also an earlier 18 c french and Biedermeier type of thing as well . They did lots of them back then and you don't see so many English ones.

Its hard to be able to say just from this distance how exactly it was made . Ive not worked on much Euro Deco stuff. So I can only suggest what i think is the most likely quality sensible way to build it . like they may have made that.
Either veneer on Ply or possibly on corestock . If I was building it I would be checking Corestock sizes to see if the thicknesses suit . Or do it in ply .

The nice way to build would be to rebate the top and bottom in , house the mid pieces into sides stopping before the front. and veneer the front edge. You would nail the sides in as well . Then lay over the thinner side and top panels glueing them down. the bottom Id just add a frame . Or do it like the rest . I think thats how it would have been done in that piece.

Your going to draw it Ian . Will you be making it as well ? Its a pretty smart looking nice piece.

I did a drinks cabinet with a similar fall front for a client . We had to make the side hinges for the job . None exist to be bought that I had seen . They are actually a simple and very strong hinge to make .

Rob

Thank Rob

Yes the original is described as "French", though it is now located in Los Angles. The veneer is described as "lemon wood" with secondary woods described as Mahogany and Oak.

For now I'm just drawing some design plans. Not sure about the making -- that might be an ask once my friend realises how expensive something like this is to commission.
I'm guessing that the original uses dowels to attach the top to the sides, and stopped housings for the shelves. I have no information on the drawers but guess they are conventional, with timber runners and an applied front. The veneer pattern continues through the book shelf.

I too was thinking core stock or block board or what the North Americans call lumber core ply. But I'm not sure of it's availability or cost.

If the sides and top are made of two sheets, I presume you would use caulks to apply pressure when gluing them together.

Thanks for the tip about the hinges.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

I cannot see anything complex in this one. In fact, it looks as if it was designed for mass production - it could be all butt joints and Dominos. The second skin is simply a design add-on, and has no part of the construction. Ply- or MDF with veneer.

I imagine the drawers run on either metal or wood slides.

Overall, a nicely dressed up box.

Someone important is quoted as saying that all all cabinet work is just a "dressed up box" and if you can build a box, you can build a tall case clock.

I'm sure the original is mass produced, and given the era, 1930s, I'd guess dowels for most of the joints.
I have no detail of the drawers, but the description doesn't suggest metal runners so suppose conventional wooden construction with an applied front.
I'll discuss the drawers with my "client" but suspect their preference would be metal runners.

Where I'm uncertain is if the second skin is an add on or part of the construction.
If an add on, the joints (on the original) could use through dowels. Clamp up the basic box, drill and install a row of dowels, then cover the exposed dowel ends with the extra panels.
Even if you had a domino, you might do the same today as stepped* or wedged dowels, really simplify the joinery.

If the piece were arts and crafts inspired I'd include wedged through tenons.




* The Miller Dowel system is an example if a stepped dowel.

I'm wondering whether there was originally a quad-type moulding in that rebate, all around. Perhaps it started to come adrift and was pulled off. As the front is veneer then perhaps the extra side panels are veneered ply (same species, just a bit less featured), planted on, then a moulding finishing it off all round.

That's the only way I can interpret it because as it is it looks half-finished.

Hi Ian

I could have explained my comments better. Basically, the second skin is not only a design feature, but it could facilitate an easier, a more basic construction method - dowels, biscuits, domino, even screws through the inner skin. The second, outer skin would hide all this.

Having stated this, that is not the way I would build. I might domino/dowel the outer case (or full blind dovetails, if you are up to it) to retain the clean look. Internally, I would use stopped dados or stopped sliding dovetails. But then I am biased towards traditional joinery and building a piece that will remain together indefinitely.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by Arron

I'm wondering whether there was originally a quad-type moulding in that rebate, all around. Perhaps it started to come adrift and was pulled off. As the front is veneer then perhaps the extra side panels are veneered ply (same species, just a bit less featured), planted on, then a moulding finishing it off all round.

That's the only way I can interpret it because as it is it looks half-finished.

Arron, thanks for your thoughts.

The piece in the photos is described as being "art deco". Art deco is characterised by what architects describe as "stepped forms" so I confident that the square rebates are the original feature.
The arrangement of the grain on the drawer fronts, the front fall panel and case back also coincides with the art deco aesthetic.

I agree that the piece in the photos would look different after a good clean and refinish.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi Ian

I could have explained my comments better. Basically, the second skin is not only a design feature, but it could facilitate an easier, a more basic construction method - dowels, biscuits, domino, even screws through the inner skin. The second, outer skin would hide all this.

Having stated this, that is not the way I would build. I might domino/dowel the outer case (or full blind dovetails, if you are up to it) to retain the clean look. Internally, I would use stopped dados or stopped sliding dovetails. But then I am biased towards traditional joinery and building a piece that will remain together indefinitely.

Derek
I really appreciate your comments and my followup was mostly explanation for others reading this thread.

I agree that traditional construction might use half or full blind dovetails, but then again, if we go back far enough, "traditional" includes cut nails!

Whilst we have not discussed building the piece, the "client" has a long standing relationship with a carpenter who, from the work I've seen, has the skills to build the piece if it contains "simple" joinery.

For me the current challenge is to produce a set of drawings that would allow someone else to build the piece, which requires that I resolve the construction and joinery issues. This is a challenge in itself, given that I'm living half the world away from my friend.

Thanks again

Originally Posted by ian

If the sides and top are made of two sheets, I presume you would use caulks to apply pressure when gluing them together.

Cauls , Yeah .

A protective board of chipboard each side . If the clamp reach can get in six inches each side but the gap is greater than 8 inches in the middle Id have upper and lower bearers , and try to have the clamps every 6 to 8 inches.
A run of clamps every 7 inches down the edges and in between them going in as far as they reach onto the upper and lower bearers. That's what would be done for pressing a veneer and is probably over kill for what looks like a half inch board but it will work well.

It will be a bit of weight so you would want sticks to prop up the sheets on the underside as well as keep the wider spans from sagging as the clamps go on . If the weight sags a side as they go on the bend stays in there for ever . An easy thing to forget, and a great way to stuff things right up. DAMHIK

Rob