Thread: Should I convert to keg Pocket Holes or stay with Mortise and Tenons on Deck Bench?

Hi Barry, I understood that you were using a proper Epoxy adhesive

Originally Posted by barrysumpter

OK the lady has given the go ahead on proper glue.
https://boatcraft.com.au/Shop/index....b5ee83bf2fc699

given your application -- gluing old weathered timber -- I have my doubts that you can properly prepare the surfaces for that Norglass stuff, clamp it for the time required, or keep the work above 10 degrees.
Good luck

Hello Barry,

I would follow the advise given by Ian. Use the bench as a pattern and rebuild it with new timber. My suggestion there would be Kwila/merbau with M&T construction with a good epoxy glue. A local builder of outdoor furniture uses that combo and often includes draw bored pins on the joints and It stands up very well and where he does use screws they are stainless steel.

I like pocket holes, they have a place for making temporary jigs and throw away items or for where you want to reinforce a repair where you can not see a better way to do it. Kreg tools are good products but despite what the company says are not for building projects that you are going to invest a lot of time effort and money in. Stick to traditional joinery.

All the best
Jeff

Originally Posted by barrysumpter

...

Anyone know if I heated he mixed epoxy it would turn into a liquid (for pouring) in stead of a gell?

No. It doesn't. At least starting from a boiling water to 50° for 15 mins.
Still had to slather it in the gaps.
Looking for a liquid epoxy now to pour into the gaps.

West Systems 105 and 206 I think at Carbatec.
https://www.carbatec.com.au/search?P...=west%20system
Closest and most reliable to me for the $.

Really happy with the strength of the gel epoxy so far.
Solid as.

Originally Posted by barrysumpter

Looking for a liquid epoxy now to pour into the gaps.

West Systems 105 and 206 I think at Carbatic.
https://www.carbatec.com.au/search?P...=west%20system

Closest and most reliable to me for the $.

Barry, what precisely are you trying to do?
Normally you would brush epoxy onto both sides of a joint and bring the components together and clamp lightly. (Heavy clamping risks squeezing the epoxy out of the joint.)

If you are pouring the epoxy you will need a mold of some sort and a release agent so that the mold doesn't become stuck to the work.

As to using West Systems, data I have says
The #206 slow-cure hardener has a working time of 90 to 110 minutes at 20°C with a minimum cure temperature of 16°C. Perhaps too high for winter in Melbourne?
The #205 fast-cure hardener has a working time of about 60 to 70 minutes at 20°C with a minimum cure temperature of 4°C.

What is your objection to using the System Three T-88 you posted earlier?

You really need to research your options -- I suggest emails to both West Systems and System Three -- to find which of their products is "best" for weathered damp previously glued wood.

Thanks again ian for you consistent support.
Much appreciated.


I'm not concerned about squeeze out.

I'll be taping the gaps bottom and sides.

Hoping the liquid epoxy will fill the bottom, top and side gaps and not leak thru the tape when poured in.
As seen in the woodwhisperer youtube vids.

yes, I'll be using the 205 fast cure.
(I might use the 207 clear cure.)
Mixing a little at a time.

Off the shelf immediate access is my reasoning.

Hello Ian,
I am going to stick my nose in to say that epoxy likes not just a clean surface free of debris and algae but also a fresh surface. The local manufacturer of kwila garden furniture I mentioned earlier has a policy of any M&T joints machined are glued up that same day, not because of oil but oxidation as he believes it can impact the joints strength and longevity. I have a number of his pieces and not a single joint has opened up in the years since I bought them. I fear that Barry is going to spend a lot of money on epoxy and not end up with the result he is after. If he is going that way he might be interested in a top quality epoxy available in Australia called Techniglue, it is available in various quanties and is available all over Australia. Barry can Google it.
All the best
Jeff

Originally Posted by barrysumpter

I'm not concerned about squeeze out.

I'll be taping the gaps bottom and sides.

Hoping the liquid epoxy will fill the bottom, top and side gaps and not leak thru the tape when poured in.
As seen in the woodwhisperer youtube vids.

yes, I'll be using the 205 fast cure.
(I might use the 207 clear cure.)
Mixing a little at a time.

Barry, please read the west Systems data sheets -- the data I have says the #207 hardener is for coating, not gluing.

Off the shelf immediate access is my reasoning.

this is a very poor reason to go with a particular epoxy, especially for what you are trying to achieve.

Can I again encourage you to seek advice from the West Systems, System Three and Techniglue assistance lines.

Lol!

Barry,

if you want to get the very best out of using West Systems epoxy I strongly recommend investing some time reading the West Systems User Manual and Product Catalogue. You can Google, but here’s a link to a downloadable pdf:

https://www.boatpaint.co.uk/acatalog...0Catalogue.pdf

It covers what the product is, which hardener to use, how to prep woods and oily woods, how to use with the appropriate West system filler, why NOT to heat the epoxy and much more. It’s an easy read and will help avoid a heap of problems.

There is a glossier, more colourful version on the West System site, but it is not so comprehensive.

Stick at it!


Brian

Originally Posted by barrysumpter

No. It doesn't. At least starting from a boiling water to 50° for 15 mins.

Still had to slather it in the gaps.
Looking for a liquid epoxy now to pour into the gaps.

........

Hi Barry

First issue may have been a bit of beginners luck! Apply significant heat to a volume of epoxy and there is a high risk of triggering an exothermic reaction. It will get real hot, start smoking and harden real fast.

Standard solvents for epoxy are acetone and MEK (methylethylketone) - just add a little of either to your mixture to thin it to whatever consistency your prefer.

Using tape to contain wet epoxy may be frought - the solvents in the epoxy may disolve the glue on the tape and it will release at the most embarassing and difficult time.

I have a strong preference for WEST 206 slow hardener - it means I do not have to rush jobs, especially when things do not go to plan.



Cheers

Graeme

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Standard solvents for epoxy are acetone and MEK (methylethylketone) - just add a little of either to your mixture to thin it to whatever consistency your prefer.

hi Graeme
a problem with this approach is that acetone can interrupt the chemical reaction leading to incomplete curing of the mix.
The bulk of my experience is with System Three where acetone can be used to clean partly cured epoxy from a surface.

Thanks Brian.
Much appreciated.
Reading it now.


-----

Remember reading something like:
"under no circumstances is this to be diluted."

MIX RATIO
1 part hardener (205 or 206) to 5 parts resin by volume and weight.

WEST SYSTEM® 205 Fast Hardener is a medium- viscosity epoxy curing agent. It is used, in the majority of situations, at lower temperatures to produce a moderately fast cure that develops it’s physical properties quickly at room temperature, and is capable of curing down to a temperature as low as 10oC.

STORAGE
WEST SYSTEM® 105 resin and hardeners will keep for 2 years, if kept in original containers at room temperature (15oC to 32oC), and out of direct sunlight. Containers should be tightly sealed to prevent moisture absorption.

Removing Epoxy

Removing uncured epoxy. Uncured epoxy is removed as you would spilled resin. Scrape as much material as you can from the surface using a stiff metal or plastic scraper - warm the epoxy to lower its viscosity. Clean the residue with lacquer thinner, acetone, or alcohol. (Follow safety warnings on solvents, and provide adequate ventilation.) Allow solvents to dry before recoating. After recoating wood surfaces with epoxy, it's a good idea to brush the wet epoxy (in the direction of the grain) with a wire brush to improve adhesion.

https://www.bunnings.com.au/diggers-...lvent_p1567459

Originally Posted by barrysumpter

Thanks Brian.
Much appreciated.
Reading it now.

good

Originally Posted by ian

hi Graeme
a problem with this approach is that acetone can interrupt the chemical reaction leading to incomplete curing of the mix.
The bulk of my experience is with System Three where acetone can be used to clean partly cured epoxy from a surface.

Hi Ian

So far I have not had that problem. Admittedely I usually only thin as a "penetrating pre-coat" and then follow up with normal mixture or thickened mixture before the precoat cures.

I usually use WEST or a local Fibreglass Shops generic copy.


Cheers

Graeme