Thread: Lipping MDF to be veneered with end grain timber.

John, that link does not work.

I can see the pic ... wonder why you can't? Anyway, I replaced it, so let's see how you go now.

All good now. How do you attach the lipping to the MDF, in my experience MDF is not a good material to attach to on the edges, it soaks in glue etc like a thirsty cattle dog drinks water.

It seems a risky move to me, John. Glueing a cross-grain lip to an immovable substrate like MDF might end in some splits in your lip (the table lip, that is, not yours.. ). However, if you will be using your favourite wood, Camphor seems to be an amazingly tough customer for its density. Judging by how hard it was to halve some big branches of the stuff for MIL's fireplace, it is very resistant to splitting, so if any wood is going to tolerate the situation, I'd bet half a stubby on Camphor as opposed to any other common wood round these parts. I suggest you do a trial run with some scrap; glue up a strip, then put it in the bathroom or somewhere where it gets pretty humid for a week or two, then put it somewhere warm & dry for a while. If nothing much happens, you could proceed with your plan with a bit more confidence....

Cheers,

Chris,

Generally, I use PU glue. Once the 2 mm veneers are glued on over the MDF and the lips, it is very solid.

Thanks, IanW.

I'll likely do just that.

John

I have done lipping using end grain in Tassy Blackwood on a curved veneered door. From memory that lipping was around 250 mm long x 16mm wide x 6mm deep. The substrate was a mix of MDF and ply, to permit me to form the curve. After 10 years or so none of the four I did has shown any defects.

I suggest you follow Ian's advice as a piece 450 mm long could have issues.

For gluing up I suggest you use hide glue, size both the lipping and base with liquid hide glue watered down to about 10% glue, let this dry, then use full strength to apply. This will prevent any starving of the joint.

Regards

Thanks guys.

I'm away in the middle of the SA desert until next week. However, I'll definitely make up some test pieces before proceeding with a real job.

Hi John ,
The way it was done for this situation in Queen Anne and George 1 Walnut furniture where Walnut veneer is laid on pine or deal ground and a moulding is wanted, like in a top like yours or a moulded edge around a base, and even the larger cornice mouldings, turned ones like the double domed tops of bookcases, was ,, cross grain laid on an angle like this at the slimmest thickness that suits the moulding .
Its used like this on oval and round Victorian table tops by dividing the curve into flat sections . It was all laid on with hide glue . Just rubbed on and left to set. then planed up flush.

Rob

Editapplied edge.pngapplied edge a.png
Grain direction is like the arrow . so you might machine down a solid board from 1000 x 100 x 19 to
1000 x 100 x 8 and then dock it into 30mm wide strips across the grain . And yes it moves . you see the early stuff with lots of movement and that was used with sawn veneers finished at 2 to 3mm . the Victorian stuff was under sliced veneer and shows any movement easy .
Laid on with a two pack glue may be less likely to move . Not as nice to lay though .

Rob

Thanks Rob,

It occurred to me that were as bright as I would like you to think I am, it would have been a good idea to give you an example of what I am considering. Some years ago I made this entertainment unit for my daughter in quarter sawn Vic Ash.

Ash Ent Unit.jpg

When I first made it, the doors were solid wood, and of course one warped. The members of this forum were kind enough to introduce me to the evils of wood movement. I cut the doors down to veneers and glued them over MDF and then put a frame around them. Problem solved.

However, I wanted to make a similar unit where the doors had no frame and where the diamond pattern in the grain went all the way to the edge. In most cases my veneered jobs involve fastening lipping to the MDF before veneering, then the edge is routed as required, as noted in the next pic.

Shelly Mitch 4.jpg

However, when veneering this diamond pattern using quarter cut timber, the edges will look odd if they are not done in end grain. Of course, this means the wood wants to move in an entirely undesirable direction, along the edge of the door. It gets worse. Timbers like cedar and NG Rosewood are great because they have low movement, but Vic Ash is much more mobile.

Finally, my musing led me to wonder ... if the edge grain lipping was in end grain, but was only (say) 10 mm deep, how likely am I to suffer movement problems? It is well established that as the timber gets thinner, it develops less power as it tries to move ... but how much less?

One day I want to make another similar unit. However this time I want the diamond pattern on both drawers and doors, and I want the pattern to go all the way to the edge. How to do that without the lipped edges looking odd next to the veneer is what led to this thread. Please forgive me for not being more clear at the outset.

I was putting this post together John and I see you have posted more .
Ill post this any way but not sure its relevant . ?

Here is some more examples . Taken from a few builds I did about fifteen years ago .

The Walnut laid on Pine shows the working out and timber samples that I kept from some jobs like the two Walnut veneered pieces below.

Minimizing the timbers power to move by keeping it smaller and least powerful to shift is the reason for doing it this way.



IMG_5278.JPGIMG_5279.JPGIMG_5280.JPG




chest003.jpgchest003a.jpg

This Pine , Hemlock, or Hem fir double dome bureau Bookcase below I did had same technique for the mouldings and cornice moulding as described. It wasn't a veneered piece though .

I made one mistake compared to what the early cabinet makers did in the old days with this piece. With the cornice moulding, I kept it as one piece insted of doing it like the rest were done on the cabinet, like the Walnut ones above. And it moved more than the rest resulting in a call out for later repair. another lesson learned . I had three originals to inspect to figure out how to build this like an old one . One in a competitors shop . One at a Sothebys Auction and one I saw in a home of a client . The Auction one was the only one I could really get into and check out . The Cornice moulding escaped me though and I figured that out the hard way


cabinet003.jpg

Originally Posted by John Samuel

One day I want to make another similar unit. However this time I want the diamond pattern on both drawers and doors, and I want the pattern to go all the way to the edge. How to do that without the lipped edges looking odd next to the veneer is what led to this thread. Please forgive me for not being more clear at the outset.

That's Fine John . No forgiveness needed

I think Ive got it .

You dont want to mould it like Im showing you ?

A plain door veneered with end grain on top and bottom and side grain down the edges ?

If that's it then yes it could be done . if the veneer is coming up to the edge then the end grain edge under it could be only 3 or 4mm thick .
Rob

Rob,

That's what I figured, but it's nice to get confirmation. Thanks.

Normally, I would make the lipping on a door like this around 10 mm. I'd guessed that by keeping the lipping shallow it's power would be restricted, but I'd likely have made it deeper than 3 or 4 mm.

What I'll likely do is put 20-25 mm straight grain lipping down one edge (where the hinges attach) and 3-4 mm end grain on the other three sides so when the door is opened the edges of the door are a good match for the veneers on the faces of the door.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

At 3 or 4 mm its going to soak up glue and finish and stop reacting to the moisture in the air for good.
The only thing is fitting the door and planing those edges. Just a bit more care needed .
No reason you cant go thicker though, 5, 8, 10mm.
Too thick and its not just movement that could happen . Its also more possible a decent knock could snap off the addition . End grain glueing is not as good at holding on . Some wood species are worse than others at holding . Oily ones.

Rob