Thread: Mitred joints - opening Pandora's Box

Originally Posted by Simplicity

David in the pursuit of expanding the collective knowledge of humanity, at times it can be Exhausting especially if one is running against the tide of what is considered the “norm”

You would be missed, from hear.

Cheers Matt.

well, that's a nice thing to say. If I find anything interesting, it would end up around one way or another. It's a puzzling thing - the forums - what we all want. derek is a consensus builder and I guess I'm just trying to find things and differentiate (and sometimes going off when it seems like a long time consensus has been wrong). It'd be easy to make a comment about what forum population really likes, but it's oversimplifying. There's a spectrum of what people want to get (whether it's consensus or the challenge of finding out if you're right with the reward that if you're not, you can learn something).

I guess what caused me to respond to this in the first place is it was highlighted in the forum list and then I saw the comment about more or less where the majority vote was. Derek doesn't really need consensus - even if it was 10 to 1 in favor that he should do something to bolster the joint, I think he should glue it if he likes.

And I guess the warren comment tagged on because I didn't care for warren early on and thought maybe he was trolling. I noticed that if I posted something generally he would respond only if he thought it was wrong. That was about it. But I'm living in a glass house because I flood discussions with details that most people don't care about, so we're all kind of different. I think the implication that there needs to be consensus, though, or that we'd hope people would react a certain way to what we're talking about leads to folks not wanting to share or being afraid to post ponderings to solicit feedback for improvement.

Originally Posted by jack620

They look fantastic. Sort of art deco. How did you cut them?

The straight cuts were made using the same jig I showed in this thread . . . Help with mitre-key saw
I made the second jig (pictured) for doing the angled cuts with a thin washer inserted to set the distance from each side of the straight cut. Very quick and easy to use and, dare I say 'foolproof'! . . . which helps me a lot!
Angle-key-jig_01.jpgAngle-key-jig_02.jpg

Vewy sneaky. Consider that idea stolen!

Me too. I just need to come up with a project that requires splines.

Originally Posted by D.W.

... derek is a consensus builder and I guess I'm just trying to find things and differentiate (and sometimes going off when it seems like a long time consensus has been wrong). ....

I guess what caused me to respond to this in the first place is it was highlighted in the forum list and then I saw the comment about more or less where the majority vote was. Derek doesn't really need consensus - even if it was 10 to 1 in favor that he should do something to bolster the joint, I think he should glue it if he likes.
....

David, I do not see myself as a "consensus builder". Look at my record of documented builds - I post about methods after they are already completed. As in this thread, I post for discussion. I am interested in what others have to say, and what their reasoning is, as much as I assume that others are interested in what I have done, and why. Again, in this particular thread, I recognised that my approach to mitres will divide the group, but went ahead anyway. The point I want to make is that it is important to build a belief in oneself, and assert one's belief. This is a reason why I am quite often at odds with Warren and am possibly the only one to stand up to him. His dismissive manner undermines the confidence of forum members and they become afraid to challenge his methods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

David, I do not see myself as a "consensus builder". Look at my record of documented builds - I post about methods after they are already completed. As in this thread, I post for discussion. I am interested in what others have to say, and what their reasoning is, as much as I assume that others are interested in what I have done, and why. Again, in this particular thread, I recognised that my approach to mitres will divide the group, but went ahead anyway. The point I want to make is that it is important to build a belief in oneself, and assert one's belief. This is a reason why I am quite often at odds with Warren and am possibly the only one to stand up to him. His dismissive manner undermines the confidence of forum members and they become afraid to challenge his methods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think Charlie probably fits that better. He offers nothing to anyone and fails to mention that his profession is accounting and tax preparation. I'm fairly sure warren feels like people will learn from what he says as I told him at one point I couldn't tell if he was a troll early on and he was highly offended (of course, I would tell him that again - it doesn't do anyone any good to withhold stuff like that). Todd Hughes' economic comment had some credibility, too, about the whole subject. I can't really gauge what unique people think about their contributions or how they're perceived. I know from my bluntness that when I've sprung on someone a summary of what other people have said in private (without telling them who or how many times I've heard the same thing), the reaction is often surprise and offense rather than contemplation.

I mention you're a consensus builder because it is clearly very important to you whether or not people agree and when someone questions what you're doing, you get upset about it rather than charged up. It's important to you how you're perceived and how your attempts to help are perceived. Your comment on here about finding more people agree with you is proof of that - it's not an accidental slip and was strong enough literally to trigger creating this topic and posting it across various platforms.

It's not my M.O, but we're different people. Maybe consensus builder isn't the right term, maybe it's seeking agreement. I went to school for math, so they're (verbally similar things) kind of the same to me aside from "developing consensus" suggests some is being made by the consensus builder vs. just checking for agreement (more passive).

For pieces like you're building, it doesn't matter, though. Not much of what I do matters (except to me), either, especially if someone else doesn't find it useful or if it's just a temporary new thing to try until the next temporary new thing to try. We're not moving the needle and 10 years after our last contribution, it'll evaporate. Can you remember the last momentum topic that's carrying on because someone who was a decent middle of the road builder posted about it in 2013? Bob Smalser gives way to Paul Sellers for better or worse.

David, I suggest that you are mixing up my woodworking with my day job of clinical psychologist. I am more inclined to react here to those who are inconsiderate of others.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi David

I have always admired your perseverance ... although your dedication can become somewhat obsessive I credit you - not Warren - with the re-emergence of the chipbreaker. You worked this out, and Warren was minimal help. Now you need to realise that the members here do not know Warren at all, unless they have travelled to Sawmill Creek or WoodCentral. Warren would not give you ice in winter, and his manner is arrogant, dismissive, and opinionated. He will allude to something, refuse to say more, and then become possessive and competitive when someone comes up with a solution. "I was doing that 30 years ago", he will sneer in a condescending tone.

You say, "I'm curious as to why it really matters whether other people approve or not", yet you frequently speak of Warren in hushed tones. As far as I am concerned, while he may be the most knowledgeable woodworker on the planet, he shares nothing with others, and sits on his eggs and guards his knowledge as if it was so precious. It means nil if it is not shared.

On woodwork forums, like this one, it is the exception to have anything but the best exchanges. But Warren would not last two minutes here. We would not stand for his manner.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I don't know Warren at all, and so won't offer a comment.


However, I will say that this forum has been a goldmine for me. So many people have gone out of their way to be helpful. When I first came here my skills were low. Since coming here my capabilities have taken off ... big time ... and only because so many folk have been generous with their skills and their time.


A thousand thanks to all of those who have helped me along the way.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

... Is adding another layer of insurance, i.e. feathers, splines, dovetails, ..... a huge impost? Belt and braces, perhaps, or is it really overkill? ...

I just like the aesthetic of the joints.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

I don't know Warren at all, and so won't offer a comment.


However, I will say that this forum has been a goldmine for me. So many people have gone out of their way to be helpful. When I first came here my skills were low. Since coming here my capabilities have taken off ... big time ... and only because so many folk have been generous with their skills and their time.


A thousand thanks to all of those who have helped me along the way.

I agree with your comment about forums. They sort of pointed me around until I finally found what I like to make and the pokes in the side now and again have illuminated to me where to look for information and how - far more than copying something trendy or current or reading lost art press posts or whatever else. I think Derek has a view about Warren, and it's not one that I share, and many others don't, so his comment about hushed tones is off the mark - it shows an inability to view things through someone else's lens or priorities.

the grouchy folks who still offer advice have something to offer us - the ones who do the negative criticism to feel good and offer nothing (there's one in the US who is at least 99% that - I think the reality is he has nothing to offer), i'm in agreement - no good. those with nothing to offer are few. they may not tell us what we want to hear the way we want to hear it, but if it's better than what we're doing, it's worth while. I see it as a bigger problem when some folks take it upon themselves to want to be the arbiter of what people do on forums or how they exchange information without any standing to do it.

That's always gone on and always will.

Pandora's Box indeed.

What is the main lesson of Pandora's Box?






Pandora's Box is a story about how evil came to exist in the world; in this Greek myth, evil came out of a box. The box did contain one good thing, however -- Hope. As the Brief Retelling tells it, "So now, when there is trouble and sadness among us humans, we have Hope to make us feel that tomorrow will be better."

Derek I think maybe you should just call them Hope Chests and leave them alone! Give them a year or two to decide if they really do need any form of reinforcement.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I agree with your comment about forums. They sort of pointed me around until I finally found what I like to make and the pokes in the side now and again have illuminated to me where to look for information and how - far more than copying something trendy or current or reading lost art press posts or whatever else. I think Derek has a view about Warren, and it's not one that I share, and many others don't, so his comment about hushed tones is off the mark - it shows an inability to view things through someone else's lens or priorities.
….

David, I am so grateful for your insight into my inability for insight. It is a wonder and miracle that I have lasted in practice all these years!

Someone has it upside down … mmm

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by Fuzzie

Pandora's Box indeed.



Derek I think maybe you should just call them Hope Chests and leave them alone! Give them a year or two to decide if they really do need any form of reinforcement.

Franklin, I think that you are correct. I am trying hard not to become neurotic and succumb to doubt … and reinforce them now. I know nothing is in danger of moving for some years, so I have time to decide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi David

I have always admired your perseverance ... although your dedication can become somewhat obsessive I credit you - not Warren - with the re-emergence of the chipbreaker. You worked this out, and Warren was minimal help. Now you need to realise that the members here do not know Warren at all, unless they have travelled to Sawmill Creek or WoodCentral. Warren would not give you ice in winter, and his manner is arrogant, dismissive, and opinionated. He will allude to something, refuse to say more, and then become possessive and competitive when someone comes up with a solution. "I was doing that 30 years ago", he will sneer in a condescending tone.

You say, "I'm curious as to why it really matters whether other people approve or not", yet you frequently speak of Warren in hushed tones. As far as I am concerned, while he may be the most knowledgeable woodworker on the planet, he shares nothing with others, and sits on his eggs and guards his knowledge as if it was so precious. It means nil if it is not shared.

On woodwork forums, like this one, it is the exception to have anything but the best exchanges. But Warren would not last two minutes here. We would not stand for his manner.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Whos Warren?

Spent a few years at sawmill creek and came across a few arrogant dicks. One in particular thought he was god, he certainly was old enough to be, even had his own gaggle of disciples, but warren isn't ringing any bells.