Thread: Make my own furniture? : Design in Sketchup > Send for manufacture?

Originally Posted by l2oBiN

If one has the right tools and materials, it should not take more than a day to cut and assemble a 180x45x50 cabinet.

I'm not sure ho much stuff you've made in before, but i feel like your expectations are unreasonble, "the right tools" is a subjective, yes for a hobbiest a $2k saw may suffice, but when running a business its not uncommon to buy +10k panel saw, plus when your business is your livelihood often times having spares/backups or funds to be able to call a technician to repair can make or break your business. Plus depending on what you plan on making setting up a woodshop is alot more expensive then you may think.

Also having the right tools also means spending time tuning your equipment, which is a cost of running a business but for a hobbiest their time is effectively free.

Also other factors include time to wrap your head around a project and time to allow glue to dry etc are other factors which are often overlooked.

Plus taking into basic rules of economics eg supply and demand where the demand for custom stuff is relatively high, but the supply is quite low its not unreasonable that people are accepting the higher prices.

Not to mention other costs such as insurance, wastage, rent etc

Sorry for rant, but in the world we currently live in people are so used to "low cost" items without taking into account the full cost of producing an item it can be frustrating when faced with these kind of comments from prospective clients.

As promised, here are some pictures showing the design, how I explode it and then how its imported into CutList. The bridge is automatic. Press a button and boom, up pops the cuts.

I do the layouts like this so I can play with the design. As each part is a component it gets reflected wherever else it might be, so the flattened parts layout is always right.


3.1 - boomBox - front.jpg 3.1 - boomBox - rear.jpg 3.1 - boomBox - exploded layout.jpg 3.1 - boomBox.jpg

Originally Posted by tonzeyd

I'm not sure ho much stuff you've made in before, but i feel like your expectations are unreasonble, "the right tools" is a subjective, yes for a hobbiest a $2k saw may suffice, but when running a business its not uncommon to buy +10k panel saw, plus when your business is your livelihood often times having spares/backups or funds to be able to call a technician to repair can make or break your business. Plus depending on what you plan on making setting up a woodshop is alot more expensive then you may think.

Also having the right tools also means spending time tuning your equipment, which is a cost of running a business but for a hobbiest their time is effectively free.

Also other factors include time to wrap your head around a project and time to allow glue to dry etc are other factors which are often overlooked.

Plus taking into basic rules of economics eg supply and demand where the demand for custom stuff is relatively high, but the supply is quite low its not unreasonable that people are accepting the higher prices.

Not to mention other costs such as insurance, wastage, rent etc

Sorry for rant, but in the world we currently live in people are so used to "low cost" items without taking into account the full cost of producing an item it can be frustrating when faced with these kind of comments from prospective clients.

My experience is that only those in business for themselves really understand the cost of being in business ... and as you suggested there is a long list of costs. Two you did not mention that irritate me are lawyer and accountant costs.

Nevertheless, I was surprised by the quotes I got for the Vic Ash entertainment unit.

100% agree with tonzeyd.

The notion that something is "quick" is untrue.

Clients who give me jobs spectacularly underprice everything as they dont appreciate the real costs. I dont often explain it, but it is as tonzeyd says. Sometimes I do, mostly not.

As a hobbyist, you get away with taking a weekend to make a thing, but if you really took the time to "pay yourself" it isnt as straightforward as one would assume. There are the obvious costs/needs of the trade, but there seems to be a million costs that aren't thought of (super? Holidays/Injury? New tools? New blades/router bits/sandpaper?).

Time is the biggest killer I get. I'd reckon I spend more time in planning and talking about some jobs that actual doing it. Then there is getting the materials (and packaging!), the additional invoicing (another 30 minutes wasted), GST and monthly business statements. Its a brain crushing waste of time (By all the gods, old and new, do I hate the government!!!)

Space is another problem. Big one for me. Im always bursting at the seams. Space costs money - big sheds are expensive and if you don't want to freeze/boil then aircon/heating is needed. I dont know how mechanics here do it, but some days are bone cold or boiling hot. Imagine working in an open workshop!

I'd also like to point out there is not a single job that I do that Ive ever done in Just A Day. Never. Never once has a client come to me with a complete plan and all materials and said "go". There is always things to collect, fixes in plans, 223 cuts to make, complex clamping, waiting for glue, sanding and finishing... then wrapping/boxing and delivery (more paperwork).

It does add up and I wish it could be avoided.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

As promised, here are some pictures showing the design, how I explode it and then how its imported into CutList.

How did i not know this! Am definitely trying it tonight!

Guys, I understand you can rack up reasons for costs, but simply put yourself in buyers shoes; would you be willing to pay 7-10k AUD for a simple cabinet like shown?

It just does not make sense.

I agree you have to make money, but you can't possibly try and recover all your costs from a single job.

It's interesting that glue up drying time is also charged? It's effectively does not require any labour for this. Would it not be reasonable to assume that one could be working on a second project while the glue is drying??


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Hopefully this will help you understand, bear in mind I don't run a business. Just a hobbiest.

Here are some costs that a hobbiest may encounter to build a "simple" cabinet

Workspace: Shed cost = $10k to the skys the limit depending on fitout options and how much work you want to do, on average a decent workspace for a domestic user will set you back around $30k for a turn key option (this also assumes you've got space to build a shed, if not add an additional $150k or more to buy land)
Tools:
Cabinet Saw = $2k
Dust extraction: $500
Clamps: $500
Sanding Equipment: $500
Drills: $500
Measuring Equipment: $30
Glues, fastening equipment,finish etc: $100
Workbench: $500
Materials: $100
Jigs: $100
Router: $300
Router Bits: $100
Saw Blade: $100
Safety equipment: $100
Total: +$15k with bare minimum

Now thats before you even begin working, and buying cheapo/used tools and equipment. Which if you're running a business you wouldn't buy, This also excludes stuff like insurance, electricity, when things go wrong, you break something etc etc.

Taking into all those factors into account a simple cabinet can easily become a $20k plus cabinet.

Not only are you paying for someone's "costs" but also their expertise which includes their apprenticeship which they would have done to acquire those skills in the first place.

So in short yes if I wanted something specifically made I would pay for it if I couldn't make it myself.

This is also one of those ford vs ferrari kind of questions, yes both get you from A to B but in reality we're comparing apples and oranges. Yes you can make it yourself but to the standard of someone that has been doing it for years... doubt it

Also in Perth there is a business called the Perth Wood School (I am not affiliated) which have used before as i needed an 18" top planed which didn't fit in my planer for a fee they hire out their workshop when its not being used to educational purposes

Maybe there's a similar facility in your area who offers the equipment you may need to build your project.

Ill read the previous replies, but perhaps if you'd like, draw up your plans and send them to me (my website is woodpixel.com.au) and I'll give you a breakdown on how it might be quoted?

Just today I was finishing off 4 cabinets. They are magnificent. Where the client made a mistake was specifying a width of timber that was only slightly wider than available stock. So when he was shopping around for price he was being quoted where there was a lot of additional joinery and the waste was high... so therefore so was the price. I offered to make a few amendments, show him the shortcuts and then won the business. The cabinets looked for all purposes, identical. All four came in at a very reasonable price.

The forum can get pretty hyperbolic sometimes. I'll offer my help for free to get you to the line.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Ill read the previous replies, but perhaps if you'd like, draw up your plans and send them to me (my website is woodpixel.com.au) and I'll give you a breakdown on how it might be quoted?

Just today I was finishing off 4 cabinets. They are magnificent. Where the client made a mistake was specifying a width of timber that was only slightly wider than available stock. So when he was shopping around for price he was being quoted where there was a lot of additional joinery and the waste was high... so therefore so was the price. I offered to make a few amendments, show him the shortcuts and then won the business. The cabinets looked for all purposes, identical. All four came in at a very reasonable price.

The forum can get pretty hyperbolic sometimes. I'll offer my help for free to get you to the line.

Thank you. Appreciate your help. Is there any resources you could point out in regards to wood stock widths, sizes, prices and availability?

Further, would you have any resources/tips on controlling the budget via use of specific joints etc...?

I would like to take this into account prior to designing.

I despise bunnings with a passion, but there are some good sizes to be chosen off the shelf.

In Sydney there are quite a few excellent wood merchants. I generally find them to be secretive, grumpy and hard to extract pricing from. Google will find their phone numbers. A quick call can help.

When seeking width, one joins boards together. You can find wide boards, but you pay out a kidney for them. In Ash (vic oak/tas oak) typical widths are 42, 65, 90, 110, 135, 160, 185, 235, 285.

Typical thicknesses are 12, 19, 32, 42.

Pricing where I get mine (Turners Building Supplies here in Canberra) has a pretty straight-line cubic rate, except for the widest boards. A 285x19 is $50 per metre (well, its a little less, but it aides calculations).

If you are keen on solid oak, I'd ring a couple of places and explain that you are "pricing up a cabinet and need a few number to see whats most economical to buy".

So, lets pretend you are making a cabinet 400 wide. Looking a the timber selection, you could make one 470 wide with no real cost increase. If it were 50cm tall and 2 metres wide, then the case alone would be:

-- sides 2 x 50cm x 2 boards wide (2 x 0.50 x 2 x $50) = $100
-- top and bottom 2 x 200cm x 2 boards wide (2 x 2 x 2 x $50) = $400

then there would be shelves, doors, etc etc. You get the idea.

Cheapest method of attachment? Dominos! Festools Magic Tool of Fastness. Make a line, zing zing zing, hammer in the dominos and presto, a magic butt joint.

Next best method is a mitre joint. I hate doing those.

The best method is dovetails! Nice big dovetails that show that oak off! Choices would be half dovetails and full through dovetails. This is a personal aesthetic and is discussed in another thread that is going at the moment (let me see if I can find it)

Then there are a few holes for cables.

Next is finishing. Whoa. That will start an argument here, but I personally love Livos Kunos oil. It is my go-to product at the moment. But, that's for a more lively debate for others. Im not a finishing fan, I go for quick and easy and sexy. So my overall choices I give clients are: Nitrocellulose (sprayed), Polyurethane (sprayed), Livos Kunos (hand applied) and a few waxes. See, not a big repertoire there! (I have two more industrial finishes, but I haven't played with them enough to be confident in recommending them to my clients yet).

Why not try a design and publish it so we can comment?

Here we go!

Construction considerations for Sideboard - Advice appreciated

This cabinet is by a designer I know called Kate Duncan and would cost $10k. Its pretty schmicko though!

Originally Posted by l2oBiN

What was the cost like? I just can't get my head around these seemingly astronomical costs. If one has the right tools and materials, it should not take more than a day to cut and assemble a 180x45x50 cabinet.

Speaking to a few people rough costs were all in 5k+ !!!!

Seems ridiculous to me! I can't seem to fathom the prices people attach to anything "custom"...

well today, I went for a wander around Trend Timbers at Mulgrave. Trend is one of Sydney's specialist wood suppliers.
Depending on the species, the wood for a 450 deep cabinet might cost in excess of $4000, that is if you want the look of having used a single board for the top and ends.

Being a bit more reasonable in the choice of species (and assuming that your design is near pure IKEA) your solid wood cabinet would likely require 7 x 3000 x 300 x 30 boards at around $200 to $250 each -- and around half that wood will end up as waste or off-cuts. Starting with boards 40 mm thick would likely result in more waste.

selecting a suitable grain match and turning the 300 x 30 boards into the 450 x 20(?) you specified would take about a day -- that is if the maker has a RF gluing setup. This step will turn around half the purchased wood into sawdust and chips.

Now I haven't examined your design for "constructability", but typically a commercial shop would want to create a set of jigs to ensure your cabinet ends up square and true. This takes time. Plus cutting the joinery -- achieving the IKEA look in solid wood takes much more time than the equivalent in manufactured board.
But given the equipment -- which could easily have a capital cost in excess of $100,000 completing this step in a day is probably achievable.

Then there is finishing and hardware. which would likely take a further day.

And I'd allow a further day to turn your sketch into a set of working drawings.

So I'm getting a total build time of around 4 days at a charge-out rate of around $100 per hour. (of that $100, the guy on the floor doing the work is being paid around $30 per hour, with the balance funding the rent, lease payments on the machinery, tool maintenance and replacement cutting edges, electricity, worker's comp and holiday pay, the accountant, the lawyer, the office person who keeps the books, sundries, etc.)

so getting to $5k is not that difficult.

Now if you were to order 10 units, the price per unit might easily drop to less than $2500.

Originally Posted by l2oBiN

Guys, I understand you can rack up reasons for costs, but simply put yourself in buyers shoes; would you be willing to pay 7-10k AUD for a simple cabinet like shown?

It just does not make sense.

of course you are right -- it doesn't make sense to spend $7-10k on a cabinet when you can buy the functional equivalent from IKEA for less than $300. You can also buy the functional equivalent from Bunnings for much less -- it'll look really really crap but will hold the TV screen an appropriate height above the floor.

BUT, if you want something that will last more than 5 to 10 years, and a single house move, you need to look beyond flat pack stuff.

Originally Posted by l2oBiN

I agree you have to make money, but you can't possibly try and recover all your costs from a single job.

if you don't attempt to recover ALL your costs per job you go broke, usually very quickly. Setting up a commercial shop might easily require a capital investment in the order of $300,000 and involve lease and rent payments of $60,000 per year. At 60% utilization (note that 80% utilization is the holy grail of asset utilization), $60,000 per year equates to around $60 per hour.

Originally Posted by l2oBiN

It's interesting that glue up drying time is also charged? It's effectively does not require any labour for this. Would it not be reasonable to assume that one could be working on a second project while the glue is drying??

it's called space.
In a small shop a project drying is taking up the space required to work on the next project.