Thread: First stages in drawer building.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Perhaps there is more than one way to do this dovetailing business? Regards from Perth. Derek

There certainly are several ways to approach the task. Your investigations and methods of dovetailing are not 'wrong'. True, they might be considered a bit nitpicking, slow and fiddly for people that have worked, or do work in the trade.

When I'm in the mood I can knock out five minute through dovetails under certain conditions, ie, four corners of a small box in thinnish, softish wood in about 20-25 minutes. There's no measuring and no marking -- apart from striking the shoulder lines with a cutting gauge, some rapid sawing, some chisel whacking, transfering of marks, more sawing and chisel whacking, and the whole thing gets bashed together with a hammer and a block of wood at the end. It's not much fun working at that kind of rate all day and nowadays I don't have to, so I don't.

You're not in that position. It's your hobby and you enjoy what you are doing. Keep at it. Slainte.

Hi Richard,

No, my training and your training were the same, I'd like to say that it was intentional as a design feature, but I'm just running on very little sleep for about a month, up every two-three hours with one of our kids. I was more focused on the technique than the layout, and I didn't even pick it. I did twig that something was different when I had to pull out a skewer for the pin sockets, but that was approaching midnight.

Oh well, it's up there now. Bit of a major stuff-up.

I'll take another series of photos when I cut the other end in traditional proportions. I was taught about 10mm for the pin in a 19mm board, tails about 30mm wide.

Cheers,

eddie

Derek, as much water has passed beneath the bridge since I last visited this thread and you seem to have grasped the redundancy of skew chisels (in this application at least), not much needs to be said, but since you posed several more queries, I will answer them.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Post #138 was where you assumed I used a wide chisel to chop the waste, and then told me to use a 1/4" and a wide chisel instead ...

On the contrary, I could clearly see you had been whacking away with a narrow chisel – on the base line. My point was that to make any ground, one needs to use the chisel sensibly to remove waste rather than just creating an ugly scar on the wood. And I don't tell people to do anything, I always suggest or recommend.

You're somewhat disposed to whining, pedanticism and twisting others' words to gain sympathy in a discussion. It's a pathetic and singularly unattractive trait which doesn't befit a professional.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Post #142? There was Basil querying the use of the kerf chisel ...

Don't come the raw prawn Derek, you know exactly which part of Basilg's post I was referring to and you fully understood the implication... (see second paragraph above).

Originally Posted by derekcohen

I find your tone insulting and condescending in the extreme.

Of course you would! But hey, if we're going to start listing our annoyances... (see relevant paragraph above).

Man-up Derek and show us all some well hewn, workmanlike dovetails and sockets... you could even present them to the web as 'Perth' dovetails!

This is renowned as a friendly board where ideas and methods can be discussed freely.

You may not agree with the method but there are ways of putting your point across without slagging off the person that posted it.

If this sniping continues a few bannings may take place.

Play nicely children.

I for one enjoy Dereks posts, if people think they are above their own level of work, then here’s a tip... dont bother coming into this thread and leave it to those who enjoy it.

Keep em coming Derek

Why not Yorkshire dovetails. Just drinking my morning tea from a cup labelled, "It's hard to be humble when you come from Yorkshire".
Funny thing is that it's made in Scotland.
Cheers,
Jim
ps. don't let things get too bland . We need a bit of edge to keep us on our toes. No chisels at dawn though.

Originally Posted by jimbur

We need a bit of edge to keep us on our toes. No chisels at dawn though.

It could be a good opportunity to dust off those languishing skew chisels!

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Let's see ...



Post #142? There was Basil querying the use of the kerf chisel ...

This is an extremely useful tool and method. Others have used it with great results as well. It originated with Tage Fride, who used a bandsaw blade and a card scraper. I just added a handle.

Then Basil wrote, Pushing a chisel in will clean out the corner but will leave an indent from the opposing corner of the chisel, I take it you are saying it is simpler and not worth the fuss of reaching for a skew chisel or knife, and to just accept this.

Derek

Derek

I am aware that Tage Frid used a card Scraper to crush the fibres in the corners of half blind dovetail sockets, and that you have amended this by adding a handle. I queried the process ( not you or Tage ) as it seems to me there is little or nothing to gain from this, as there is a risk of splitting along the grain, hence your use of a clamp. When hammering in the Kerf chisel, it may well crush the remaining fibres at the bottom of the saw kerf but the least resistance to this action may be the adjacent pin as there is a saw kerf on the other side which will prevent the pin from being given much support by the clamp. Additionally I feel that the use of an additional tool and a cramp is overcomplicating the dovetailing process and adding to the time taken to complete the joint. In any event once the bulk of the waste is removed from the socket, the face of the pin is easy to cut with a chisel, to remove the waste not cut by the saw.

I questioned WW's comments on cleaning out the socket, as I own, & use, a pair of skewed dovetail chisels, & I think he has opened my eyes here, by highlighting that, the odd ding on the inside will not affect the performance of the joint. However, whether I can accept that advice and cease to fuss over a socket until it is perfeck is another matter.
Similar to nailing on drawer bottoms.

But I doubt that he really expects me or anyone else to religiously follow his every utterance, but more for us to consider if what we are doing is really the best / most efficient way of doing things.
I think he is someone prepared to share his great skill & knowledge & although forthright, I think there is a lot that can be learned from him.

Regards

Originally Posted by Basilg

I think he is someone prepared to share his great skill & knowledge & although forthright [...]

That's better!



















I'm joking Derek and Lignum!

Originally Posted by Basilg

I questioned WW's comments on cleaning out the socket, as I own, & use, a pair of skewed dovetail chisels, & I think he has opened my eyes here, by highlighting that, the odd ding on the inside will not affect the performance of the joint. However, whether I can accept that advice and cease to fuss over a socket until it is perfeck is another matter.
Similar to nailing on drawer bottoms.

But I doubt that he really expects me or anyone else to religiously follow his every utterance, but more for us to consider if what we are doing is really the best / most efficient way of doing things.

You're right of course. Most of the techniques I employ were gleaned during the restoration of period furniture. Many of the techniques and 'tricks' have been lost to time and often fly in the face of modern perceptions and techniques, so no, I don't expect 'my' methods will be generally accepted or adopted.

Originally Posted by Woodwould

That's better!



















I'm joking Derek and Lignum!

For one horrible moment, I thought it was going to be shillelagh at dawn on the Nullarbor.

Regards

Originally Posted by Basilg

For one horrible moment, I thought it was going to be shillelagh at dawn on the Nullarbor.

Regards

What!! WW and Derek go somewhere where there are no trees.
Cheers,
Jim

Originally Posted by Basilg

Derek

I am aware that Tage Frid used a card Scraper to crush the fibres in the corners of half blind dovetail sockets, and that you have amended this by adding a handle. I queried the process ( not you or Tage ) as it seems to me there is little or nothing to gain from this, as there is a risk of splitting along the grain, hence your use of a clamp. When hammering in the Kerf chisel, it may well crush the remaining fibres at the bottom of the saw kerf but the least resistance to this action may be the adjacent pin as there is a saw kerf on the other side which will prevent the pin from being given much support by the clamp. Additionally I feel that the use of an additional tool and a cramp is overcomplicating the dovetailing process and adding to the time taken to complete the joint. In any event once the bulk of the waste is removed from the socket, the face of the pin is easy to cut with a chisel, to remove the waste not cut by the saw.

I questioned WW's comments on cleaning out the socket, as I own, & use, a pair of skewed dovetail chisels, & I think he has opened my eyes here, by highlighting that, the odd ding on the inside will not affect the performance of the joint. However, whether I can accept that advice and cease to fuss over a socket until it is perfeck is another matter.
Similar to nailing on drawer bottoms.

But I doubt that he really expects me or anyone else to religiously follow his every utterance, but more for us to consider if what we are doing is really the best / most efficient way of doing things.
I think he is someone prepared to share his great skill & knowledge & although forthright, I think there is a lot that can be learned from him.

Regards

Hi Basil

There will always be many methods of doing things. Its great to have choices.

When I posted this method a short while back (actually, I did so a couple of years ago as well - I have been using it that long), I did so with clear warning that it must be used with care. The clamps are essential, as is a judicious use of the hammer - tap it down, do not force it.

That said, I have not split a board in years. And deepening the kerf works to facilitate easier removal of the waste.

There has been a long and rewarding discussion on these same topics on WoodCentral. One of the regular posters was very skeptical of this method but, to his credit, tried it out and reported his experience ...

Half Blind/Lapped dovetail waste removal revisited *PIC*

With regards Woodwould, I have said what needs to be said.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Eddie

a "pat on the back" from me for posting this.