Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Vic, Australia
    Posts
    1,255

    Default Router Table, Spindle Moulder, CNC Spindle or Round Body Router?

    Hi guys,

    I've decided I could use a router table or spindle moulder - or both. I'm a little space limited so would prefer to only squeeze one in, not both - and they both seem to take up a similar floor space.

    I see the primary uses to be template routing stool/chair/furniture parts, cutting cope and stick joinery for doors/windows, tongue and groove boards, and for routing small parts (and stuff like saw handles, plane totes etc) where a hand-held router is awkward or just doesn't work. I often entertain the idea of making some furniture or even doors for sale in the future and see a spindle-moulder providing greater capability and efficiency than the router table, albeit at the expense of poorer ability to spin router bits due to the lower rpm limit.

    Questions -

    Does anyone have thoughts on a Felder Hammer F3 Spindle Moulder as a do-everything machine - it has a 4kw single phase or three phase 240v motor option (not sure if I could add a VFD to the 240v 3 phase and get a bit more top-end rpm out of the machine without hurting the spindle bearings? - like maybe 12,000-13,000rpm so that it does an acceptable job with router bits), it has an option for a router bit collet spindle, is about 350-400kg (so not a full-on industrial machine, but heavier than the chinese spindle moulders of around 220-250kg), has a sliding table which should be useful for tenon cutting / coping), and should be a good quality unit if reviews of their other machines are anything to go by. Or is this machine still too under-powered/light-weight to do proper door-size work effectively, and also not doing the job of a router table well either? Kind of too in the middle? I don't have 415v 3-phase power and don't really have the space for a large spindle moulder - this is about the limit. Cost with a small power-feeder is approx. $7500- and this is a fair crap load of money for me and would be significantly more than I've spent on any other machine in my workshop - I'd need to keep saving for a while and would definitely want it to earn it's keep - even if this is at some point in the future. I assume the chinese compact size spindle moulders (like a Harvey $2800- or Laguna $3500- etc) aren't worth touching?

    Alternatively, I'm thinking that until I know what I definitely want the machine to do, I may be better off with a router table for now, and invest the size-able amount of cash in a spindle-moulder only once I'm sure of what I need it to do / know I'll be getting some real volume use from it.

    Looking at the Sherwood 4-post lift and round body router motor from Timbecon as a good but cheap option - and build my own table around it. I'd make the table height so that it can serve as an out-feed table behind my table-saw - which would be handy in any case. Anyone have thoughts on these?

    If I go this route, is there any real benefit to getting their water-cooled CNC 2.2kw spindle motor vs the round-body router motor for an extra $500-? The spindle motor is supposed to run quiet which would be nice vs a screaming universal motor but does the spindle motor actually provide a lot more torque at lower rpm to spin larger bits etc?

    Cheers,

    Dom

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh
    Posts
    7,696

    Default

    First cab off the rank, the three phase F3 will be 415V not 240 and the tooling costs big dollars on top of the machine. The biggest gotcha with spindle moulders is counting your fingers after the machine has stopped and I don't mean to make that sound a light hearted comment, they are IMO the most dangerous machine in hobby workshop. To use them safely a power feeder is necessary and supplementary jigs if the feeder can't be used. If at any time you want to buy a European slider then the spindle can be included in the machine so a cheaper approach might suffice now. I can't comment on the Asian machines but Fletty sold his after one use IIRC due to a frightening experience and Pat has it now.

    The CNC spindle plus VFD/DRO will give you at least a comparable result with equal control to any commercial lift for a lot less, about $700'ish. The version I built for Illawarra WW School (see the router forum for the build) cost a bit less because I found a cheaper spindle. it has far better speed control, way, way, less noise and came with a full range of ER20 collets so it can be used to hold different tooling such as end mills etc of different sizes. If I was to do it again I would build the lift etc into a module out of the cabinet and drop it in after building the cabinet and if you decide to re-build the cab it can be pulled out and dropped in without any problems. Follow MandJ's (Mike's) advice for dust extraction and you will have zero dust and chips to clean up.
    CHRIS

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Vic, Australia
    Posts
    1,255

    Default

    Sorry the Hammer options are 4hp/3kw single or 240v, 3 phase (presumably also 4hp). A 415v, 3 phase motor is standard.

    Thanks Chris. The safety aspect doesn't bother me and wouldn't be a factor in my decision making.

    The Timbecon lift and water-cooled (not sure if this is an annoying aspect to maintain?) spindle motor (with pump and controller/VFD) is currently $1400. I assume one could save a bit buying from China on the spindle/VFD - the Timbecon unit with local support/warranty is $900- on it's own. The round body router (1800w) and lift combo is currently about $840.

    I have seen some of your/other router table builds and they look cool/inovative, but I don't really want to make a big project out of this - just want to get something I can use with a relatively small time investment. Off-the-shelf lift / motor may also be a little easier to sell if I get rid of it in favour of a spindle moulder in future. I'm leaning towards starting with the router table until I'm sure I want/need a serious spindle moulder.

    I need to check but pretty sure my mill/lathe collet set is ER25 or ER32 so I guess I'll also need to buy a collets etc if I go the spindle motor. On the other hand I guess I can use some of my mill tooling.

    Cheers, Dom

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh
    Posts
    7,696

    Default

    Most of the spindles come with a complete range of collets from 2mm to whatever because I forget the biggest one and includes pump, VFD and spindle mount. They also have a stepless speed controller within the VFD. The only reason I am enthusiastic about using a spindle is the substantial saving of money and the simplicity of the lift itself which basically has no parts to go wrong. Forget the electronics, we built the router lift in a few hours complete with above table adjustment controlled by a DRO. It is building the table that takes the time and that is the same for either option.
    CHRIS

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    34
    Posts
    6,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    Alternatively, I'm thinking that until I know what I definitely want the machine to do, I may be better off with a router table for now, and invest the size-able amount of cash in a spindle-moulder only once I'm sure of what I need it to do / know I'll be getting some real volume use from it.
    I'd be going with that plan.

    Moulders are a lot of fun and can really punch out the work, but they're an expensive piece of gear to tool up (think a couple of hundred per head at least), let alone buy, so you do need to be able to justify the purchase.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh
    Posts
    7,696

    Default

    As Elan says it is the tooling that costs the big money. If you are in a production workshop and do a limited variety of different work then those costs are known. Apparently trying to run router bits in a shaper to get around the costs of tooling by using router cutters does not work due to the shaper's lower spindle speeds.
    CHRIS

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Vic, Australia
    Posts
    1,255

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by elanjacobs View Post
    I'd be going with that plan.

    Moulders are a lot of fun and can really punch out the work, but they're an expensive piece of gear to tool up (think a couple of hundred per head at least), let alone buy, so you do need to be able to justify the purchase.
    Yeah thanks. I probs will go the router table route for now. I just need to decide on how much to invest in it. Part of the reason I haven't yet got a router table is that every time I started planning one out I'd get to $3000+ after looking at incra, jessem etc etc, and then I'd think - it's still just a router table and at that price-point I'd be better just reaching further and getting a more capable spindle moulder. So I really need to go more minimalist. I'm just not sure I really want to go the route suggested by Chris - seems like too much mucking around to me (no offense intended at all) - I also don't want to automate anything or have electronic controls etc. I'm leaning towards a cheaper lift like the one from Timbecon and either the spindle motor (if it really offers more capability) or the cheaper round-body motor. Then I'll knock up a top, cabinet and fence myself. Nothing too complicated.

    Cheers,

    Dom

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh
    Posts
    7,696

    Default

    Yes, the electronics are a lot to deal with but the manual version is dead simple and it can have a simple lift off top that need not be very thick at all. You have seen this thread?? A Router Table Using Linear Rails For a Lift

    This has no electronics except for the DRO on the lift and I suppose the VFD can be included as well.
    CHRIS

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hobart, Tas
    Posts
    1,211

    Default Router Table, Spindle Moulder, CNC Spindle or Round Body Router?

    Don, if you just want simple, get a router that has an integrated above-the-table-lift. I know my Mikita and some Tritons do, which allow you to raise and lower it with a screwdriver from above the table when mounted upside down. Just add a $100 aluminium table insert, and a cabinet or table of your choice.

    This is what I did, and it’s a highly capable setup. I do like the Chris’ solution though.

    Lance

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Do you have recommended table insert? There are a number of them on eBay...

    Dale

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    337

    Default

    I’ve seen a lot of people say that spindle moulders will provide a poor finish with smaller router bits, but has anyone here tried it? 10k rpm should be the same as running a triton router on speed 2 I think (I’ve never tried that with a small bit).

    I agree that a good router table is the place to start, I like my cast iron carbatec one with a triton router in it, the hand wheel to adjust the fence, cast iron top etc make it feel more precise than what I’d knock together.

    That being said, the value of a tool like the F3 shouldn’t be understated though, a great sliding table, tilting head, more advanced fence, power feeder, much more power, longer life. Not worth it to just do routing jobs, but if you want to do a lot of rebates (segmented milling head), big tenons (horizontal slot cutter), decorative profile (cheap swappable knives in any style), panel glue ups (Glue joint cutter) they certainly have an important place in a workshop if you build several of an item at a time to sell etc.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    34
    Posts
    6,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Turner View Post
    I’ve seen a lot of people say that spindle moulders will provide a poor finish with smaller router bits, but has anyone here tried it? 10k rpm should be the same as running a triton router on speed 2 I think (I’ve never tried that with a small bit).
    Down to 1/2" I reckon you could get away with it if you feed slowly, maybe even 3/8", but once you get to 1/4" diameter my guess is you'd have to feed so slowly it wouldn't be worth the effort (or they'd just snap). You'd also have better results with HSS than carbide at those speeds with small diameters due to the lower angles and sharper edges of steel bits.

Similar Threads

  1. Wadkin Lathe, Renniks Router, Spindle Moulder table saw help needed
    By Wazau in forum ANTIQUE AND COLLECTABLE TOOLS
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 15th September 2014, 10:58 PM
  2. spindle moulder or router table?
    By dean11 in forum FURNITURE, JOINERY, CABINETMAKING - formerly BIG STUFF
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 10th July 2012, 04:42 PM
  3. Table router or spindle moulder?
    By FenceFurniture in forum ROUTING FORUM
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 23rd January 2011, 12:16 PM
  4. Spindle Moulder or Router Table?
    By Sylvester99 in forum WOODWORK - GENERAL
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 30th July 2009, 01:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •