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Thread: Trim Router advice
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4th February 2019, 10:08 AM #136GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks Mike
I think there’s a bit of variation between the Chinese models too. Bit of pot luck as to what you receive.
And we are talking tiny amounts - 10’s or hundredth‘s of a millimetre, and I’m not sure how much that’s going to mean in real use.
Most of the wobble I saw initially was that Xtorque bit, which shall now be referred to as ‘Rubbish’
So I think that if it lasts a reasonable amount of time, it’s still not bad for the money
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4th February 2019, 10:43 AM #137
It would be interesting to do some comparisons of runout in larger, established routers. The question in my mind is what level of runout is meaningful? I have not tested my original Makita and Chinese cheapie - for all I know they could be out as well - however, they work well, and their results do not suggest an issue. So far (it seems to me), all the work done with these reviews has been on a technical level. Have you used them yet? If so, how did they perform?
Testing the runout on an established larger router may show similar results. On the other hand, the collets on my Elus are different to these trim routers. The collets in the Elus are separate from the nut, but they click together, so any change in position is minimised. The collets in the trim routers remain loose. That could indicate a similar issue with all similar routers. The question is whether this is meaningful, and to what degree, in actual use?
Regards from Perth
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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4th February 2019, 11:45 AM #138
I would think that the acceptable runout would vary with the work being done and bits being used. Fine CNC work with tiny bits would need very close tolerances I would think. Most woodwork plunge routers I've measured are over 0.02mm, depending on bearing tolerances, quality of the bit and the big factor again, quality of the collet.
I agree, how the collet is retained would have a big influence, in tests I have read in the past, the biggest problem encountered was the quality of the collet, with most tested as being quote "CRAP"
Obviously the testing we are doing is not to find the magic value but to compare the two routers - or in this case the collets. I mentioned that I did a bit of routing with it yesterday and it was fine. I can run that larger Bosh cutter up to high speed and there is no vibration - it's seems to be beautifully balanced. I think, depending on the bit, that anything over 0.15 mm is going to be noticed though?
Just as a matter of intertest, I will do a few cuts with the original collet when I get time as I can adjust that for varying amounts of runout, it may (or not) be interesting to see at what level runout starts to be a problem with a smallish 1/4" bit.(1) Our small workshop layout __ (2) Bandsaw circle cutting jig __ (3) Spindle sander modifications __ (4) Dust Sensor
(5) Router table redesigned ____ (6) DC and where it all began __ (7) Bandsaw dust extraction build
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4th February 2019, 11:48 AM #139(1) Our small workshop layout __ (2) Bandsaw circle cutting jig __ (3) Spindle sander modifications __ (4) Dust Sensor
(5) Router table redesigned ____ (6) DC and where it all began __ (7) Bandsaw dust extraction build
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4th February 2019, 03:51 PM #140
FYI I found these figures:
Triton plunge routers and other fixed base routers measured:
Triton had less than 0.018 mm of runout, Milwaukee and Ridgid 0.025 mm. Bosch and Porter-Cable had runout of 0.077 mm. Craftsman and Freud had 0.13mm, an amount they normally consider unsatisfactory:
However it was noted that cuts from all routers with a large, tall molding bit were basically the same, the finish depended more on feed speed and the number of passes used to remove material. I guess the thing we would notice more with hand held routers with excessive runout (within reason) would be vibration.
Mike.(1) Our small workshop layout __ (2) Bandsaw circle cutting jig __ (3) Spindle sander modifications __ (4) Dust Sensor
(5) Router table redesigned ____ (6) DC and where it all began __ (7) Bandsaw dust extraction build
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4th February 2019, 04:18 PM #141GOLD MEMBER
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Apart from runout on the shaft I would be more interested in the difference between the two cutting edges on the cutters before and after they are installed in the router.
On the 1/4" dia cutters if the runout is a problem you can use a single flute cutter and then runout is irrelevant.
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4th February 2019, 09:12 PM #142
This probably isn't the same ballpark, but it may be interesting reading for you.... I bought an AUK tools table mounted motor https://www.woodworksupplies.com.au/...ter-motor.html and the PC7518 compatible collet from https://www.precisebits.com/gateways...tsNutsHome.htm
I hate runout. I really hate it.
The PreciseBits come in FOUR standards:
EP (extreme-precision grade) TIR < 0.0001in (0.0025mm), TIR @ 1.0in. < 0.0002in.
UP (ultra-precision grade) TIR < 0.0002in (0.005mm)
PG (precision grade) TIR < 0.0004in (0.01mm)
SG (standard grade) TIR < 0.0006in (0.015mm)
Here is some info where they talk about such things: https://www.precisebits.com/tutorial...ng_collets.htm and https://www.precisebits.com/spindle_runout.htm
They also happen to sell calibration blanks.
Again, not exactly a means of rectifying runout on an el-cheapo, but interesting food for thought.
I am only a happy customer. Their customer service via email is outstanding.
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4th February 2019, 10:08 PM #143GOLD MEMBER
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The AUK router motor doesn't take ER collets, does it? As stated a setup like this is in a different ball park to a small trim router.
While runout is a pain when machining wood it's nothing compared to what can go wrong if you're machining metal without using lubricating coolant.
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5th February 2019, 12:45 AM #144
No, it doesn't take ER's. I included the information solely as reference to what can be achieved plus info on how to measure it. Nothing more.
I'd imagine however, that these guys would happily make a solution to cover the small makitas.
There are certainly a lot of these kinds of collets around due to small routers being used in cheaper small CNC offerings....
Edit: here is one The Elaire Corporation
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5th February 2019, 02:14 PM #145GOLD MEMBER
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The cordless Makita was mentioned 50000 posts ago. Just in case you're on the DeWalt 18V system, apparently coming soon:
Screenshot 2019-02-05 14.10.19.jpg
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12th February 2019, 09:11 PM #146
OK, so I'm a masochist and I don't have particularly high expectations for a cheap tool anyway. I also like fixing things and making things work. Having had a recent need for doing a bit of round over work, I thought I would give this a try. As per the others here, the collet on the machine I received was also poorly machined. Running the calipers over the the collet jaws showed 3 of the same measure but the 4th was somewhat smaller, no doubt accounting for the runout previously seen here. No problem for me I have a Makita 3620 with compatible collet so I swapped them and had a bit that was running true.
Then my real problems began. Using a roundover bit the depth setting accuracy is quite important. I set the bit and tested and I had a wildly wrong cut with a big shoulder rather than the clean round over I had set up for. Strange I thought, maybe I set it up wrong. I reset the cut and tried again, similar shoulder. I checked the collet and the bit to check if they were really compatible and why the bit was slipping, but no. The bit wasn't moving it was the body shifting in the fixed base.
I noted the clasp mechanism was loose so I tightened the clasp clamping screw. I adjusted the depth of cut and started again, but the body slipped in the base yet again. I looked at the worm gear on the adjuster thing and one of the teeth was missing. I don't know if it broke during adjustment or wasn't there to start with. I readjusted the depth of cut and tried again, but still off. It appears that using the depth adjuster will also loosen the clasp fixing nut and the body will apparently continue to slip in the fixed base any time after you adjust depth of cut.
So not only does it appear the plunge base is useless, the fixed base is suspect as well.
At that point I gave up.
If you have your own fixed jig and just need a motor to use in it, this might be an OK tool, but if you are going to be relying on the supplied accessories my recommendation would be to look elsewhere.Franklin
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6th August 2020, 04:10 PM #147
Makita DRT50Z - cordless - very happy
After rereading aaaallll of this thread I went and bought a Makita DRT50Z battery trimmer/router.
It was pretty hard to get. Everyone was OOS bar one Qld dude on eBay ($244 4/8/20).
I am stoked by this little thing. It has gobs of power and is exceptionally well made. Comes with a 5 yr warranty if one registers.
I honestly expected it to be a bit plasticy and frail given it is only supposed to be a cheapo trimmer, but it is the opposite. It feels meaty, heavy, well balanced, smooth to start, heaps of power and everything is smooth polished and neat.
It is a brushless tool too, so its power output and operational noise is excellent/low. Personally, I love brushless tools. Unsure why
As I said - very pleased.
My little apartment is .... little, so hand tools are the go. I was bashing away yesterday to make a few boxes. The hand saw work was tiring (I'm getting old, fat and weak!!!) so I cheated and used the Festool vac and circ saw. Quite a few cuts, with me fiddling about with measurements in between. The neighbours didn't complain! Which is nice
I mentioned this as noise is a thing in residential areas, especially now with the plague and people working from home. This little trimmer is quiet in its own action (can't do much about the bits wwwrrrrroooowwwwww) so it shouldn't annoy my fellow inhabitants.
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6th August 2020, 08:02 PM #148
This is one of my favourite IG posts from the lockdown. The consideration for his neighbours whilst pursuing his hobby through practical efforts really stuck with me.
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25th September 2020, 09:52 PM #149SENIOR MEMBER
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Bit late to the overall topic and wasn't going to wade through all the posts but has anyone got anything to say about the makita knock off plunge base only. Is it rough and hard to adjust, threads look to barely hold... Or is it pretty good?
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31st October 2020, 08:36 AM #150SENIOR MEMBER
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An update to my request
I bought the entire package as it was less than a genuine makita base...
Plunge base is ok. The first time you attempt to use it, every thing not well tightened down will fall off from the vibration, which I'll mention next
The actual router is another story. It was un-usable right out of the box. The collet was so badly made there must have been about 1mm wobble in the bit at the bearing, which was about 30mm from the nut. So if you plan to buy one, order a collet also at the same time from a non-chinese manufacturerer - you'll need it. My assumption also is that the electrics won't last long. Not a great feel. On off switch should be ok as it's only a gate, but the variable speed is suspect. I'll be looking at how I can by-pass it for when it starts to play up.
Some may ask why I don't return it then. These have been around for quite a while, so in that time if they can't iron out the issues, they never will. I doubt I would get anything that was better if i did, so the hastle of returning it and waiting, more waiting... isn't worth it. YMMV
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