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Thread: Trim Router advice
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1st February 2019, 02:12 PM #121
Mike, it is clear that the problem is the collet. Yesterday I pulled out the two trim routers I have to examine the collets. As I mentioned, the Makita I have is dedicated to 1/4", unlike the Chinese version which has a 1/4" reduced size to fit a 3/8" shaft. However, the quality of the collets was quite comparable. The Chinese 1/4" collet I have is far better machined than the picture of the replacement in the link above. Frankly, the replacement collet looks pretty rough. I suspect that you would be fine with the genuine Makita article.
I do see what you mean about positioning the collet in the head. Even the original Makita is fiddly. The collet is tapered, and this should enable it to align itself. Check the replacement for any burs or rough edges that may obstruct.
Regards frim Perth (currently in Sydney)
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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1st February 2019, 02:29 PM #122
Thanks Derek, yes the replacement looks almost identical to the original, I checked for burs and tried a few other ideas. If the collet chuck is true than obviously the quality of collet is extremely critical, as it is in most cases and with that in mind I'll grab a genuine collet.
Mike.(1) Our small workshop layout __ (2) Bandsaw circle cutting jig __ (3) Spindle sander modifications __ (4) Dust Sensor
(5) Router table redesigned ____ (6) DC and where it all began __ (7) Bandsaw dust extraction build
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1st February 2019, 02:56 PM #123GOLD MEMBER
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I’ll get hold of the genuine Makita again and do some testing with a dial gauge. The wobble with the original Chinese collet was obvious on my machine, and not obvious (to the naked eye) with the genuine. But Mike’s post suggests I need to have a proper look. I don’t have a Centering tool but I should be able to get a reading of the smooth shank of a bit.
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1st February 2019, 03:26 PM #124
That would be great, I mentioned the vibration of the centering tool causing a slight shift in the collet position because that sort of "bit vibration" can happen whilst routing with a small bit, is that also going to cause the router bit to not run true? Or am I expecting to much from a trim router?
Mike.(1) Our small workshop layout __ (2) Bandsaw circle cutting jig __ (3) Spindle sander modifications __ (4) Dust Sensor
(5) Router table redesigned ____ (6) DC and where it all began __ (7) Bandsaw dust extraction build
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2nd February 2019, 12:04 PM #125
Have you checked to see if there is any play in the armature bearings?
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2nd February 2019, 12:57 PM #126
Good Morning Mike
This might sound like a silly question, but how are you putting the bit in the collet?
I find that with my big, gutsy Makita 3600BR router, if I bottom out the bit in the collet then sometimes I get a bit of vibration. But if I deliberately lift the bit 3-4 mm from the bottem of the collet before tightening then it will always run smooth.
An engineer mate suggested that this was "inherent" in the design of the collet which could cause distortion, But I am an economist, definitely not an engineer and I couldn't follow his analysis, but it sonded convincing at the time.
Cheers
Graeme
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2nd February 2019, 01:48 PM #127
Graeme
I am fairly certain that more than one router instruction manual I have read (I do the read the instructions sometimes) recommends the router bits do not bottom out in the collet, so this seems to back up your comment. I can't offer any reason as to why this should be.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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2nd February 2019, 02:32 PM #128GOLD MEMBER
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The reason router cutters should not bottom out in the shaft is that as you tighten the collet nut, the collet grips the cutter and the cutter is forced down into the shaft to centre the collet.
If the cutter is bottomed out the collet can grip the cutter before it is fully centred in the shaft, the nut will tighten and the cutter will appear to be correctly fitted.
In fact the collet may not be centred in the shaft and the cutter will then wobble as it rotates. It can also appear to change position with vibration, exactly as has been described.
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2nd February 2019, 05:17 PM #129
That's what could be happening if the collet looks to be clean.
Regards from Perth
DerekVisit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.
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3rd February 2019, 06:28 AM #130
Screenshot_2019-02-03-06-05-12.jpgScreenshot_2019-02-03-06-05-12.jpg
Found it, hope this helps
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3rd February 2019, 09:11 AM #131
Hi Graeme and others - no nothing to do with that, one of the major reasons you don't want to bottom out the bit shaft is because of heat expansion. The other reasons were mentioned in a post above.
So once again NO to incorrect positioning of the bit in the chuck. I have the tools to measure anything like this, unfortunately due to health I can't really do this at the moment, but I'm aware of every pitfall in router collet and bit placement. This collet should be less prone to tilt but only if it's machined correctly, like I said, I'm not going to waste time mucking around until I try a correctly machined collet, then I may get the time (or enthusiasm) to actually find out what is wrong with the clone collets.
Mike.(1) Our small workshop layout __ (2) Bandsaw circle cutting jig __ (3) Spindle sander modifications __ (4) Dust Sensor
(5) Router table redesigned ____ (6) DC and where it all began __ (7) Bandsaw dust extraction build
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3rd February 2019, 07:48 PM #132
Had time to look at both collets under a microscope: Both the original and the unit ordered are identical, both are perfectly smooth, shiny and beautifully machined.
The original collet had slight runout that gets worse or better as it's position in rotated in the chuck, the replacement unit runs true in one position and only one position, if I put in in the marked position it's always true. Close examination of the collets position in the chuck seem to indicate that it should be able to clamp down and not move - but it's possible that a slight design or tooling flaw is reducing the force that the clamp bolt can apply to the collet and allowing either uneven clamping or insufficient force to the collet and therefore the bit.
Like I said, I need to compare a Makita collet and look at the critical dimension and shape around the transition from the top "vertical side rim" to the side taper of the collet. Something just doesn't seem right? BTW I did a quick tryout on timber today with the replacement collet and the cutter ran true through the work.(1) Our small workshop layout __ (2) Bandsaw circle cutting jig __ (3) Spindle sander modifications __ (4) Dust Sensor
(5) Router table redesigned ____ (6) DC and where it all began __ (7) Bandsaw dust extraction build
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3rd February 2019, 08:27 PM #133GOLD MEMBER
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The evening news is in, and I'm afraid it's not good...
Spent some time with the dial gauge, chinese copy and a genuine Makita. Bit of a hastily put-together video of the tests (not the most scientific, but I think it's close enough). The long and the short of it is...
The chinese collet is slightly worse than the genuine item, but it's not the only source of error. I suspect there's an issue with the interface between the router and collet as putting the genuine makita collet in the chinese machine made no difference. Chinese collet in the genuine makita is slightly worse than genuine collet in genuine machine.
Also: Cheap router bits are rubbish .
Peter Jackson won't lose any sleep over this, but here it is: https://youtu.be/4qV2C2WULQA
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4th February 2019, 08:25 AM #134
First off, thank you for the video and the comparisons. This actually raises more questions for me as even the Makita is not that great in the video?
With that in mind, I got up early before the heat got to the shed, I replicated the same test setup with a "Moore and Wright" dial gauge and magnetic Base.
Chinese copy Router with the replacement collet: Measured on the 1/2" shaft of the (combined 1/4" and 1/2") centering tool : Total runout was 0.04mm
Same setup with a Bosh router bit: Total runout on the shaft is less than 0.005 mm. In other words, the dial pointer hardly moves whereas the Makita shows around 0.06mm in the video.
I'm wondering if the Bit shaft in the video is still not quite true?
I'll measure the original collet later and also measure the Router chuck inside rim runout.
Mike.(1) Our small workshop layout __ (2) Bandsaw circle cutting jig __ (3) Spindle sander modifications __ (4) Dust Sensor
(5) Router table redesigned ____ (6) DC and where it all began __ (7) Bandsaw dust extraction build
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4th February 2019, 09:12 AM #135
Following on a with few more tests.
Inner chuck runout is a bit difficult to measure but it's so close to zero that's it likely just the test setup showing a slight indication.
The original collet with the Bosh bit measured almost 0.6mm runout - large and visible movment - it can be reduced somewhat by rotating the collet.
I really tried to eliminate any movement in the measurement setup when measuring the Chuck runout and so I retested the replacement collet and Bosh bit:
The TOTAL runout is now 0.00mm - the dial pointer does NOT move.
Replacement 0.00 mm versus original 0.50 mm.
Having the router clamped in a soft jaw vice highlights a difference in feel between the two collets. The faulty collet does not seen to sit correctly in the chuck, it feels like the lower part of the collet is starting to clamp the bit and bind in the chuck before the top is fully clamped, there is definitely something different.
Mike.(1) Our small workshop layout __ (2) Bandsaw circle cutting jig __ (3) Spindle sander modifications __ (4) Dust Sensor
(5) Router table redesigned ____ (6) DC and where it all began __ (7) Bandsaw dust extraction build
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