Thread: $6000 on dust collection, give up woodworking or guaranteed health issues?

Dom, there is an alternative.

Keep in mind that history is another source of information in determining the dangers of woodworking. The fears of wood dust are justified, the sensible choices are to create an adequate dust removal system, or do without the need for it.

Fine dust comes from sanding and routing for sure. What about the bandsaw and the tablesaw? What is the size of the particles here?

What does history tell about the dangers of woodworking before the era of sanding and routing?

What is the dangers of dust with hand tools?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Dom, there is an alternative.

Keep in mind that history is another source of information in determining the dangers of woodworking. The fears of wood dust are justified, the sensible choices are to create an adequate dust removal system, or do without the need for it.

Fine dust comes from sanding and routing for sure. What about the bandsaw and the tablesaw? What is the size of the particles here?

What does history tell about the dangers of woodworking before the era of sanding and routing?

What is the dangers of dust with hand tools?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,

The problem with looking at history is that it's possible that many people who may have suffered allergies, illness, cancers, etc did not even make the connection between wood dust and their ailment. Furthermore, would this information have been adequately recorded? I'm not sure.

I recently did some measurement, albeit limited, with a very good quality calibrated dust meter and found that hand planing, filing etc created a lot of airborne dust. What's more, only the weekend before, I spent a very sleepless night with acute side effects after playing with a bunch of new hand planes, files etc I acquired only recently, making a small walnut mallet, because I thought that they did not produce fine dust and so wasn't even wearing a mask. Granted I think I have already developed a reasonably strong sensitivity and this probably wouldn't affect most people.

If it came down to one of two choices - either a) spend $6000 on dust extraction or b) give up wood working, I'm afraid I would have to give up woodworking.
As a hobbyist who spends some time, but not all of the weekend pottering and maybe a bit of holiday time, there is no way I could justify that expense. Most of my equipment, like the table saw and router table, is home built - I can't justify spending $1000s on woodworking equipment or extraction.
I use a workshop vac. connected to my smaller handheld equipment like sanders, routers, jig saws etc and the same unit plus a larger unit connected to the table saw and router table. Both units exhaust outside the workshop.
I wear a respirator and face shield and work outside the shed on larger projects as I'm also space limited.

So I'll add option d) I'll take the same precautions I took when working for years on asbestos related automotive products and X-rays and lung function tests, which were mandatory for change of job, have shown that these precautions have worked.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't like a full blown extraction unit, but space and costs prohibit one.

Originally Posted by DomAU

So a question for everyone; If you knew for a fact, 100%, that wood dust was going to cause you to develop a sensitivity that prevented you working wood in the future, cause you to develop serious illness, or worse yet lead to an early and unpleasant death, what would you do then? If spending $5000-6000 on dust collection could prevent all of this, would you be a) happy to spend it, b) give up woodworking or c) Just ignore the issue and deal with the consequences?

I checked my bank account. It has less than $5000 in it. Option A is out.
I like woodworking, something is gonna kill me, why should I deny woodworking to be my murderer? Option B is out
Option C it is.

I do this stuff full time. full time doesn't have to mean a long time. We live so that we can die.

If $6000 removed 100% of the dust and risk. I would spend it.

Perhaps not right away, but it would be saved and spent within a defined period.

People think nothing of buying a car that loses 1/3rd its new value as soon as it leaves the car yard, or is worth 1/4 its price in 5 years time.... houses are bought with lottery winning prices. What difference is $6000.

My concern would be noise. I hate it. I love my DC and big machines, but by golly would I love quiet induction motors on everything and a well insulated DC.

It seems that most woodworkers blame wood dust for any allergies, asthma, etc symptoms that they develop after working with wood. Exposure to wood dust certainly causes many serious health issues. However, I believe that there is a much more common health problem associated with woodworking.

Based on my own experiences, I believe that the allergic reactions that some of us get (e.g. Allergies, Asthma, and other bronchial problems) after working around wood, could be caused more from exposure to the volatile organic compounds (i.e. the organic chemicals in the wood that give the wood the unique smell that we associate with it) that are emitted by some freshly cut/surfaced woods. If you do a Google Search using a phrase such as "wood volatiles cause allergies", you'll find a large volume of information.

I've never had asthma before I started working with some forest red gum. Within a few days of starting work on a trailer load of red gum, I started to have coughing and breathlessness problems. The Doctor diagnosed asthma, and wrote out scripts for asthma puffers. I then took a three week holiday, so I wasn't working with the red gum - and the Asthma cleared up. I still hadn't realised what was causing the Asthma. As soon as I got home from my holiday, I got back into the workshop. Within 24 hours the asthma had returned. So, I stopped working with the red gum, and the Asthma went away again. So, the trailer load of red gum was sold to make room for more wood that doesn't cause me heath problems.

I've since found that Blackwood (Acacia Melanoxin) also causes the Asthma to return, but nowhere near as severely as the red gum. And, a lovely Beefwood turning blank caused serious Asthma symptoms within the first half hour on the lathe, so the severity of the problem is not the same for all woods.

According to my GP, the problems that I get as a result of exposure to certain woods is an Allergic Asthma. In my case, it responds well to the usual asthma treatments, and avoiding those woods that give you problems is a permanent cure. The GP also told me that he often sees carpenters and other woodworkers who get nasal and eye allergy problems (symptoms very similar to hayfever) when they work with certain woods. In those cases, the GP advises that the non-drowsy antihistamine tablets sold for as hayfever treatments and taken daily are usually effective at controlling this sort of wood allergy. Both of these allergies are caused by exposure to the wood's volatile organic compounds, and as a result you can get the symptoms when doing woodwork that doesn't cause any dust (i.e. hand planning).

So - if you're getting asthma or allergy symptoms after working with wood, talk to your GP before you take the drastic action of giving up woodworking.

Regards,

RoyG

It seems that most woodworkers blame wood dust for any allergies, asthma, etc symptoms that they develop after working with wood. Exposure to wood dust certainly causes many serious health issues. However, I believe that there is a much more common health problem associated with woodworking.

Based on my own experiences, I believe that the allergic reactions that some of us get (e.g. Allergies, Asthma, and other bronchial problems) after working around wood, could be caused more from exposure to the volatile organic compounds (i.e. the organic chemicals in the wood that give the wood the unique smell that we associate with it) that are emitted by some freshly cut/surfaced woods. If you do a Google Search using a phrase such as "wood volatiles cause allergies",

The Report on Cancer indicates that the volatile components in the wood dust are the most likely causes of wood dust related cancer.

Here is what they say

polar organic solvent extracts of some hardwood dusts were weaklymutagenic in Salmonella typhimurium, and two chemicals found inwood, delta-3-carene and quercetin, also were mutagenic in S. typhi-murium. In vivo exposure of mammals and in vitro exposure of mammalian cells to organic solvent extracts of some wood dusts (beechand oak) caused DNA damage, micronucleus formation, and chro-mosomal aberrations (primarily chromatid breaks). Elevated ratesof DNA damage (primarily single-strand breaks and DNA repair)and micronucleus formation were observed in peripheral-blood lym-phocytes from people occupationally exposed to wood dust (IARC1995, NTP 2000). The roles of specific chemicals found in wood dust (either naturally in the wood or added to it in processing) in causing cancer arenot clear. The particulate nature of wood dust also may contributeto wood-dust-associated carcinogenesis, because a high proportionof dust particles generated by woodworking typically are depositedin the nasal cavity. Some studies of people with long-term expo-sure to wood dust have found decreased mucociliary clearance andenhanced inflammatory reactions in the nasal cavity. Also, cellularchanges (metaplasia and dysplasia) observed in the nasal mucosa ofwoodworkers and of laboratory animals may be precancerous (IARC1995, NTP 2000).

The smaller the particles the greater the total surface area so that more components can leach out of the wood.

No amount of money spent on a DC is a guarantee against developing a wood related allergy because not everyone has the same sensitivity to wood or wood dust.
Some people can bathe in wood dust while others will react to even very low levels of some dust while a few are sensitive to even touching some woods.

An individuals reaction is determined by dust levels, exposure time and their personal sensitivity.
It's difficult to know your own personal sensitivity until you sense it and by then it may be too late so in practice all one can do is target dust levels and exposure (time)

If your shed is small enough and the DC can be located outside there's no need to spend $6000 to get a low risk system.
Don't forget its the diameter of the ducting that makes the biggest difference in air/dust removal rates.
Most DIYer with a smaller sheds (<6m ducting runs) can minimise risk using a 3HP DC (<$1000), and <$1000 worth of 6" ducting and fittings.
They must of course open up the ports on machinery to utilise 6" ducting or that will be wasted - this also applies to a $6000 system

Oh yeah one more thing - None of this matters if one forgets to turn on the DC!
That's when whole of shed ventilation becomes important.

Unless you have a big shed or plan on multiple users, after a basic system I would focus on ventilation rather than an even bigger/better/expensive DC.
$500 on ventilation will be cheaper and quieter than ventilating via any bigger DC system.
In my shed I have up to 1600 CFM of ventilation at one end, ~1200 CFM in the middle and a 1000+ CFM 3HP DC system.

My main problems are now metal and grinding dust - stay tuned.

One of the problems I see with this whole extraction thingy is that when someone asks about dust control, even to what type of respirator to wear, there is this tendency to say "spend heaps, everything else is rubbish". Even the title of this thread is saying this a)spend big or b) give the hobby up or c) die early.

What if, on questions re table saws, every response was "you must buy a Saw Stop, nothing else will do because it will stop you cutting off bits. If you don't buy one, don't use a table saw"

We all know there is an inherent risk when using a table saw but we take steps to minimise the risk and the key word is "minimise".

So it is with dust - we can't all afford the best but we can take steps to minimise the risk and that's how queries should be answered - "what have you equipment to you have, what dust extraction have you got, what can you afford. This is the best way or one way to minimise the risk based on responses to these questions in my opinion."

The system that's going in to my Men's Shed doesn't meet the "must haves" quoted here but it's being put in by a firm that specialises in this area to industry, is costing way more than $6000 and is designed to meet all Standards re collection, filtration and noise.

Just my point of view

When I eventually get my workspace up and running I'm going to go with a 3HP collector with 6" ducts all round but I don't see room filters discussed much. Are they worth the money or should I just spend the cash elsewhere? I've linked one below in case you don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.timbecon.com.au/extracti...r-room-cleaner

Wood dust is Paleo and that means it's okay, I use a mask when playing with MDF coz it's man made and not Paleo friendly.

I am an idiot that works outdoors and uses no extraction, Darwin will come for me one day but I think it will be before the wood dust gets me.

Seeing as I have terminal cancer and I have only recently started inhaling wood dust after decades of metal particles and exhaust fumes etc I don't care about ingesting a bit of wood.

Originally Posted by Ubernoob

Wood dust is Paleo and that means it's okay, I use a mask when playing with MDF coz it's man made and not Paleo friendly.

Only naturally broken down wood dust is paleo.
Dry Wood in the open air decomposes at different rates but a typical rate is 1mm per 100 years.
This allows the toxins and volatiles to break down at the surface well before most wood leaves the structure structure itself as a dust particle which has minimal effect on most humans.

Rotting wood dust is probably worse for you than raw wood since it contains loads of bugs and is why composting should be done wearing a mask even though its done outside.

It's only been ~50 years since machinery and power tool have become readily accessible to lure numbers of DIY and has literally created a dust storm in thousands of DIY sheds.
eg


The effects are masked by the 100's of other allergic triggers and ways there are to die.

Originally Posted by bueller

When I eventually get my workspace up and running I'm going to go with a 3HP collector with 6" ducts all round but I don't see room filters discussed much. Are they worth the money or should I just spend the cash elsewhere? I've linked one below in case you don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.timbecon.com.au/extracti...r-room-cleaner

I recommend getting ventilation sorted before air filtration - they are very good at cleaning up air spaces of ALL dust before applying finishes