Thread: Some advice appreciated for small garage hobby shop

Hi Ged. Welcome to the forum.

You didn't say if you still need to park a car or two inside the garage when you aren't playing. With the laundry to stay dust collection is a must or you'll be catching it from your good lady turning her into a bad one. How much room is there above the garage door/hardware and in the soon to be shop overall? Of the two units I would get the 2 bagger and replace the filters with a pair of industrial filters, not the ones they sell with the paddles. Toss the inlet adaptor aside and run 6" pipe throughout, saving the adaptor for the bandsaw.

Pete

Firstly welcome to the forums.

Originally Posted by Gedc

so it needs to go internal. I appreciate i can build a cabinet inside but want to check re venting it outside to stop backpressure etc.

If you make the outlet twice the cross sectional are of the inlet to the DC the back pressure will be minimal.

RE: Choices

Vacuum cleaners are are hopeless on the machinery you mentioned..
Adding a cyclone to a small DC is like adding adding a large boat anchor to a motor bike.
The DC-7 should be OK for a small shed BUT you have to use 6" ducting.
My understanding is " 6" ducting and fittings in NZ cost an arm and two legs", but without at least 6" ducting you will never win the war on dust.

Moving a DC around inside a shed means it is not usually enclosed and vented outside - this will immediately result is you losing the dust battle.
All DCs leak at some time or other which results in fill a shed with fine dust
Better would be to put the machines on wheels and move them to the middle of the shed where you need the space t0 use them anyway and there have a permanently mounted dust port and ducting you can connect to.

Re: noise
There are ways of making the air coming out of a DC quieter than a bath room fan. The noise should be no louder than your existing heatpumps/aircon which presumably run at all hours?
Read the posts on enclosures in the Dust Forum.

It sounds like you are prepared to do it right and if so I strongly encourage you to go the 6" ducting - maybe get a less expensive TS? - and ut the DC outside. If there is a single thing wood workers can do about dust it is to "put the DC outside"

You could run the pvc ducting up in the roof space and have the drop downs coming down through the plaster. That will avoid the garage door issue and won't block lighting or make the space seem too busy. It's a bit more effort but worth it imo.

Not knowing your financial situation i would seriously consider ordering a Clearvue or similar (not sure what is available in NZ) cyclone and buy a cheaper TS. In my opinion I feel better walking out of the workshop knowing i don't need to stress about the unknown damage or future health issues i will face due to wood dust than i would knowing i cant cut off a finger. At least you know you have all your fingers when you leave the workshop, but with poor dust collection you never know what you may have started brewing in your body and with no way to check / put your mind at ease.

The Clearvue does not take up much space horizontally. Probably less than a typical single bag extractor.

Thanks heaps for the help folks. To answer some questions and ask some more of mine.

No cars in the garage. They are parked on driveway so I have all the space to setup permanently.

There is roughly ( need to measure ) 250mm between the garage door support rails and the ceiling so ducting could go above them however the door runs along these rails so any ducting hanging down in this area between them would get chopped by the garage door when opened LOL. It could run along the ceiling for a bit but couldn't hand down in this space. So if I was to come down through the roof I would have to do it a bit towards the back of the garage where the opened door didn't reach. That is the floored/ storage area in the loft however so additional issues there. Might be I hang it from the ceiling after all but do like the idea of just having one port coming down and tappings being taken off it.

Re replacing the DV filters with industrial filters - are you talking about the ones sold by the likes of machinery house or something else from a specialised firm ?

I agree ideal location for the DC unit is outside but having looked at the space again, it's too tight - we have two heatpump units along that outside wall and the area isn't that wide as it's down the side of the house so wouldn't fit - noise issues aside. So I have two options. Build a cabinet inside the garage or possibly rolling the DC unit outside onto the driveway through the main garage door before using it.

If I build the cabinet - and I can make it fairly well sealed - what do I need to do to vent it outside. Is it simply a vent to stop static pressure building up inside the cabinet. If so, I was thinking two plastic grilles connected by flexible ducting. Basically up through the plasterboard, across about 24 inches and back down through the soffit at the edge of the house. If we are talking additional extraction re sucking the air out from inside the cabinet then that's another consideration !

Re moving the DC. Knowing they leak and spew fine dust everywhere - If I rolled it outside to use then apart from the noise, would that suffice as most of the fine dust would be dispersed - some possibly back into the garage however !

I like having a fixed DC setup and rolling the saw and or planer towards the exhaust. If truth be told I could at a push use the planer outside as well on the driveway so the main use would be TS ducting.

Re Clearvue - had a look and the height of the unit seems to be the issue. I have standard 2.4m ceilings and both models appear too tall. If truth be told I'm still a bit confused over the use of a cyclone or not as keep reading conflicting stories about the benefits they offer over just a straight suck and dump using filters.

Finally - if I'm getting a TS then it has to be the Sawstop. I was originally getting the Powermatic big yellow beast but I've been very clearly told SWMBO approves IF and only IF it has the Sawstop tech. I've explained I can still cut off digits but at least it's an extra safety feature for the Darwin moment.

Fully agree with the price/value of health. I appreciate for the home as well ( internal door) I don't want fine dust everywhere and through the ducted heating system that would disperse it so beautifully so am happy to spend within reason and space to get a solution. If it becomes prohibitive then I'll can the shop idea and go back to drooling over other folks posts J

Keep the answers and ideas coming folks. Your experiential learning can't be bought from a store.

Ged

Originally Posted by DomAU

You could run the pvc ducting up in the roof space and have the drop downs coming down through the plaster. That will avoid the garage door issue and won't block lighting or make the space seem too busy. It's a bit more effort but worth it imo.

That sounds like a good way to go.

A Clearvue is the best option and if you have the $ then go for it. OTOH given the price of 6" ducting and junctions in NZ I would direct any spare $ to 6" ducting and fittings before getting a ClearVue. You only have a single car garage that will be easily served by a 3HP DC7.

Re noise - I built an enclosure using 9mm ply and about half a bag of sound batts from Bunnings. In theory one should using something heavier than 9mm ply to really dull the noise, but in my case it makes the DC quiet enough that the noise of the tools themselves are the bigger issue. And I'm using something equivalent to a DC7.

Re expensive fittings in NZ - yes we pay a fortune here. I managed to get semi-reasonably priced 6 inch y junctions / take offs from a guy called Andrew at PRM. He goes by Tank Guy on TradeMe. That said, most of mine are still sitting around waiting to get put into use when I get around to finishing all the ducting.

I was actually thinking one of the main benefits in this case of the Clearvue is that it can be placed inside the garage and vented directly outside. This eliminates the recirculation of dust issue with any other collector located inside, particularly the dust bag type, given the OP said he didn't have the option of outside placement. But yes, it is expensive. I initially baulked at the price but then i realised if i can afford to buy table saws, bandsaws etc at the same price level then i can't make an argument even to myself that i can't afford to buy the Clearvue.

If you have space for an enclosure outside then, yes, the bagged dust collectors could be fine.

Originally Posted by DomAU

I was actually thinking one of the main benefits in this case of the Clearvue is that it can be placed inside the garage and vented directly outside. .

Good point - enclosures do take a lot more space than you first think.

Re Moving the DC outside.
If you open up the garage door and put the DC outside, how well the works depends on how far away from the door it is.
If its immediately outside the door then it won't help much as the shed will represent an area of low pressure and the air around the DC will be at high pressure so the dust will go strait back inside the shed.
If you drop the door down that is better, but it needs to be well sealed (garage doors are usually not well sealed) on the side where the DC is located and a large unrestricted air intake made available on the wall opposite the door.

If you want to keep the door open I would recommend the DC be at least 6m from the door. This means 6m of extra ducting which will soak up valuable flow rate - you'll need about 6m more of ducting up inside the shed so overall the 12m of ducting will kill a small DC and then you will need a cyclone.

If I build the cabinet - and I can make it fairly well sealed - what do I need to do to vent it outside. Is it simply a vent to stop static pressure building up inside the cabinet. If so, I was thinking two plastic grilles connected by flexible ducting. Basically up through the plasterboard, across about 24 inches and back down through the soffit at the edge of the house. If we are talking additional extraction re sucking the air out from inside the cabinet then that's another consideration !

If you use 6" ducting inside the shed, then the exit from the enclosure should be 2 x the cross sectional area of one 6" duct - but NO grilles. If you use grilles you will need about 6 x the area of a single 6" duct.
If you need to ducting from the enclosure to the outside I would use at least 9" or 12" ducting - regular soft aluminised AC flexy ducting can be used as the pressures are low.

So Clearvue is looking more like a possible option but have read good and bad reviews re build quality and it consisting of lots of diy parts. Coming to the conclusion I'm stuck with something inside so happy to bite the price bullet ( to a certain degree ). Looks like I'm going to source clearvue from Oz and it's already looking like $5 to $6k NZ including shipping. And that's if I can get it to fit floor to ceiling at 2.4m. That's one helluva jump from the initial $800 I was expecting to spend.

Any positive or negative views on the following type of model from carbatec - https://www.carbatec.co.nz/product/5...e-dust-cyclone

Still gonna be inside but thinking it may not have as many fine dust issues with 1 micron filters instead of the felt bags. I do appreciate DC outside and then DC enclosed are by far the best solutions in an ideal world but for an occasional woodworker with a good mask and open doors for airflow do you still think I'm going to have issues.

I see most of these standalone machines have a 4 inch port as standard. Do i simply convert either end with step up/ step down plastic tube and run 6 inch ducting between machine and tablesaw etc. Am also thinking of putting in some metal / smoothwall ducting between the DC unit and up along roof then down into centre of room which should also significantly help with overall CFM losses.

Finally..Am i in overkill mode for extracting some dust from primarily a tablesaw for now and no doubt the near future. I can carry my dewalt planer when i get it outside.

Cheers

Gidday Ged and welcome to the forum.

It’s good to see that you are considering dusty collection as a priority when you are setting up your shed. I think it’s fair to say that for most people when setting up, myself included, that dust control sat at the bottom of the list in priorities and budget.

To help you with your decision making, here’s a few comments relating to my experiences with setting up a small shop. I started with some reasonable gear buy had a hopelessly inadequate bagged dusty which I’ve replaced with a home built cyclone which serves me well. I’ve started a couple of threads about this on this sub-forum which may be of some interest.

Firstly, in relation to your last question, the best thing you can do in terms of maximizing extraction is to install 150 ducting from the extractor and maintain this right to and ideally through your machines. Restricting your lines to 100 diameter, even for a short length, will severely hamper air flows to somewhere between a half and a third of what would be achieved with a 150 dia line.

With some of your proposed machines, such as the Dewalt planer, this may be difficult but there are options such as having a junction to 100 dia connection to the machine plus a 100 dia open pipe removing dust from the air close to the machine. This approach could also work with the Sawstop with 100mm going to the cabinet and 100mm to the overhead guard.

While there’s nothing wrong with the Clearvue cyclone, I can help but think with the machines you are proposing a home built cyclone will be almost as good and be less than half of the cost. With a lower powered home built machine, instead of plumbing in individual machines, you could have a single central dropper on flex and with you machines on mobile bases move them to the dropper.

You also mention the Carbatec dust cyclone. Although I don’t have any first hand experience, my understanding is that the cyclone unit itself is the wrong shape size and it functions not much better than a chip removal device leaving the burden of fine dust removal to the filters.

Thanks Muchacho

I thought buying the power tools would cause me the 'decision' issues but it would appear that's the easy part compared to dust collection J

I plan to collect from both the guard and beneath the saw as well. I'm not at the stage of cutting / adapting to a 150mm duct at this time but can see the obvious benefits. So best I can do at this time is to have the 150mm line running from the DC and then stepping it down at the machine into the two different ports - 100mm under the table and smaller again ( I think ) at the blade guard connector.

It's also going to be internal to the garage so I'm need the best filters possible so pleated filters appears better than bag.

I keep reading about the cyclones being great and dropping most of the dust out of the airstream before the filter but in other posts read that they significantly reduce the airflow and compromise your system. So again, should they / shouldn't they be incorporated into the design etc.

Will keep reading and thanks for the feedback. I'm happy to DIY a solution and have no issues constructing etc but am keen to get best solution I can - understanding that this may be 100mm extracts on machines for now. I have settled on having a central port from the roof and plugging in the various tools as I need / use them. I plan to make them relatively mobile.

Originally Posted by Gedc

I plan to collect from both the guard and beneath the saw as well. I'm not at the stage of cutting / adapting to a 150mm duct at this time but can see the obvious benefits. So best I can do at this time is to have the 150mm line running from the DC and then stepping it down at the machine into the two different ports - 100mm under the table and smaller again ( I think ) at the blade guard connector.

I realise nobody wants to take an angle grinder to a brand new machine, but unless the ports are opened up no matter how good the DC is you will collect at best ~2/3's of the fine dust made by a TS. This is like having a 2 of the 6 cylinders of a car engine not connect to the exhaust system leaving the exhaust rest hanging around the engine to get inside the vehicle.

There are sometimes ways of minimising or not permanently damaging the machines to make the ports larger. Whenever I modify a machine I will usually completely remove and replace a cabinet panel or part so that the machine can if necessary be restored to its original form. This is easily done on most DCs where the inlet plate is completely replaced. This is not always possible and sometimes the angle grinder has to be used.

It's also going to be internal to the garage so I'm need the best filters possible so pleated filters appears better than bag.

Once bags and pleated filters are loaded up with a thin layer of dust (i.e. conditioned) they operate at about the same efficiency in terms filtration. I have measured this many times and if anything, in terms of micron removal, the needle felt bags are better straight out filters than pleated filters.

One time when most filters leak fine dust is while they are being conditioned (this can take hours) and this is when your shed can get a serious load of fine dust dumped into it. Pleated filters have a larger surface ares so they take longer to condition so they initially leak more total fine dust than bags.

However, as usual there are swings and roundabouts, as once conditioned, pleated filters will maintain higher flow rates for longer than regular bags - the increased flow rate means you collect more fine dust for longer. Whatever you buy, if you are going to use your DC inside the shed, make sure the filters are conditioned OUTSIDE the shed before you use the DC inside.

Conditioning is best done by dragging the DC outside the shed and then sucking up a couple of buckets of sawdust into the DC and leaving it running outside for a couple of hours for bags, and twice as long for pleated filters. The swirling action of the DC will mince large dust into fine dust and condition the filters. If you simply cannot do it outside then suggest opening up all doors ad windows and setting up some extra shed exhaustion - ventilation.

I keep reading about the cyclones being great and dropping most of the dust out of the airstream before the filter but in other posts read that they significantly reduce the airflow and compromise your system. So again, should they / shouldn't they be incorporated into the design etc.

A well designed cyclone made especially to work with a specific large impeller and 4 or more HP motor will have plenty of flow and separate out much of the coarse from the very fine dust. But you cannot just make or buy a cyclones from X and strap it onto impeller/motor Y and assume it will work. Cyclones like the Clearvue have been specifically designed as an integrated package and done't forget they use 15/16" impellers and 4HP motors. Smaller impellers/motor can be used but that requires larger cyclones and to get enough flow and good separation requires more critical matching of the components.

Ged I have the big SawStop and it has a 12" x 12" access door on the left side of the saw opposite the motor access box on the right. You could easily make a panel to replace the access door With a 4" to 6" flange in it to supplement the 4" at the back of the saw. They, along with another duct above the blade guard area should go a long way to getting the fine dust from the saw without cutting anything. If you wanted to sell or in rare cases get warranty work done it could easily be reconfigured to the as received condition.

Pete

I'll add the 4" flange at the back of the saw has a hose that runs up to the blade shroud area but dust still gets past and into the saw's base cabinet so an extra pickup below is not a bad idea.

Welcome to the forum.