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  1. #1
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    Default Am I on the right track (3HP DC)?

    Hi All,

    Thanks to everyone who has contributed to these forums, greatly increasing my understanding (or confusion?) of dust collection. After spending many hours reading posts here and Bill Pentz’s website, I am ready to invest in a dust collection system (I’m also sick of carting my equipment outside whenever I need to cut something). Given the complexities of dust collection I will summarise my understanding of what would work in my situation, and ask for your considered opinions on whether I am on the right track or not. I will split up my post so you can skip over the boring bits if you prefer.

    Usage
    At the moment I only have time to work in the workshop 1 day/week. About half of this time will involve creating dust (the rest is largely taken up looking for tools, or wondering why my measurements don’t add-up). I will mostly be working with structural pine, and sometimes with plywood. I try and avoid MDF if I can help it.

    General layout
    My shed is a 9x6 metre Colorbond double-garage (see CAD screenshot). At the front are two sliding doors which I generally leave closed for privacy reasons and to minimise noise affecting the neighbours on the street. A side door is screened from view/sound by a steel fence and can be left open for light and ventilation.

    Attached to the back wall of the shed (on the outside) is a type of “lean-to” built by one of the previous owners. It’s divided into two rooms with doors (doors not shown on the screenshot) and is mainly made of corrugated galvanised steel. Immediately behind the lean-to is a garden area screened by fences and trees which would be suitable to exhaust dust into without adversely affecting myself or the neighbours.

    Along the back wall of the shed (inside) is a rough timber bench. Power-points and overhead lights are all located along this back wall, so it makes a natural location for setting up the power tools, leaving the front of the shed for storage, painting/assembly areas etc. Initially I will use the existing bench for my tools, but most of my early projects will involve building custom workstations for the tools including improved dust capture.Shed.PNGLean-to.jpg
    Last edited by mprenzler; 18th February 2019 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Fixed some formatting issues

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  3. #2
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    Proposed setup

    General consensus seems to be to aim for 3HP dust extractor with 6” ducting. I am leaning towards: https://www.ledamachinery.com.au/led...actor-2200cfm/ as it locally available, the price is right, and it doesn’t require modification to accept a 6” hose.


    I propose to house the dust extractor in the lean-to. This will help reduce noise, will keep any dust leakage out of the shed, and fine dust passing through the filter bags can be exhausted harmlessly into the garden. Would passive venting be sufficient, or would I need an exhaust fan in the rear wall of the lean-to prevent any fine dust build-up? If the latter, would this do the job? https://www.bunnings.com.au/dynabree...n-fan_p4440782 It’s rated at 60 m3/min, which is over 2000 cfm if my maths is correct.


    For dust collection itself I propose to run a 1mx6” PVC pipe from the dust extractor through the shed wall, and attach a 3mx6” flexible hose to it. I can then attach the hose to each woodworking machine as dust collection is needed.


    The biggest limitation to this setup will be the tiny ports on my hobby-level machines. For some of the larger machines I plan to build them into a movable workbench or fixed workstation which encloses the machine to better capture the fine dust (including a fitting for the 6” hose) – see below. For the smaller machines the only real option I can see is to use a shop-vac for chip collection. I have a cheap Ozito vac attached to an Ebay cyclone which I can use. I propose to connect the exhaust of the vac to a flex hose which exhausts into the lean-to (or maybe into the 6” hose while the dust extractor is running?).


    For fine dust collection on the smaller machines it may be possible to fit a 12” (max) exhaust fan in the gable of the shed. That sized fan won’t, however, achieve the recommended 20 room changes/hour given the size of the shed. Am I better off just running the dust extractor for 10-15 minutes longer as BobL recommends in some of his posts? (perhaps attached to a “Big Gulp” style chute).


    Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. If anything is unclear, please let me know and I will try to explain better.

    Cheers,


    Michael

  4. #3
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    Overview of main machines and proposed modifications

    Table saw – mount in custom workbench on castors. Replace current saw enclosure with one suited to 6” exhaust port. Use shop-vac for top blade guard (or connect blade guard with the enclosure and only use the dust extractor?).

    Router table – mount in bench, enclose and make suitable for 6” port.

    SCMS – build improved cutting station, enclose and make suitable for 6” port.

    6” jointer – make suitable bell-housing?

    13” lunchbox thicknesser – current hood has 100mm port. Replace with larger hood?

    Hand router/jig saw/circular saw – shop-vac. Maybe make a “Big Gulp” style chute on a moveable stand and locate near the tools when operating them?

    Sander – shop-vac. Build downdraft table to suit 6” port.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprenzler View Post
    Proposed setup
    General consensus seems to be to aim for 3HP dust extractor with 6” ducting. I am leaning towards: https://www.ledamachinery.com.au/led...actor-2200cfm/ as it locally available, the price is right, and it doesn’t require modification to accept a 6” hose.
    It won't pull anywhere near that 2200 CFM. Attaching it to a short length of 6" ducting will immediately restrict it to ~1250 cfm and the its downhill from there as the ducting gets longer and more contorted.


    I propose to house the dust extractor in the lean-to. This will help reduce noise, will keep any dust leakage out of the shed, and fine dust passing through the filter bags can be exhausted harmlessly into the garden. Would passive venting be sufficient, or would I need an exhaust fan in the rear wall of the lean-to prevent any fine dust build-up?
    Passive venting will work OK and even if dust builds up inside , its a "lean too"? so you are not going to be spending much time in there. When it comes time to clean the filters wear a mask and the minutes it takes to do this job represents a low overall exposure.

    If the latter, would this do the job? https://www.bunnings.com.au/dynabree...n-fan_p4440782 It’s rated at 60 m3/min, which is over 2000 cfm if my maths is correct.l
    That fan unlikely to move that much air (think about half) and it will be noisy. Look up the Hydroponics fans on ebay. They are very quiet and efficient ie low power. I doubt you will need one for the enclosure but you can always try without and then think about it later.

    For dust collection itself I propose to run a 1mx6” PVC pipe from the dust extractor through the shed wall, and attach a 3mx6” flexible hose to it. I can then attach the hose to each woodworking machine as dust collection is needed.l
    3m of flex is less than desirable I would try to get that down to under 1m.


    The biggest limitation to this setup will be the tiny ports on my hobby-level machines. For some of the larger machines I plan to build them into a movable workbench or fixed workstation which encloses the machine to better capture the fine dust (including a fitting for the 6” hose) – see below.
    A good way to go. The other possibility is a down draft bench.

    For the smaller machines the only real option I can see is to use a shop-vac for chip collection. I have a cheap Ozito vac attached to an Ebay cyclone which I can use. I propose to connect the exhaust of the vac to a flex hose which exhausts into the lean-to (or maybe into the 6” hose while the dust extractor is running?).
    that's one way to do it - but try to use as little flex as possible instead use 50mm PVC specifically for the vac,

    For fine dust collection on the smaller machines it may be possible to fit a 12” (max) exhaust fan in the gable of the shed. That sized fan won’t, however, achieve the recommended 20 room changes/hour given the size of the shed. Am I better off just running the dust extractor for 10-15 minutes longer as BobL recommends in some of his posts? (perhaps attached to a “Big Gulp” style chute).
    Big gulp or 12" fan by itself won't help that much for your 54m^2 but anything is better than nothing so combine that plus running the DC longer will help. I'd use the Hydroponics fans from ebay

  6. #5
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    Big gulp or 12" fan by itself won't help that much for your 54m^2 but anything is better than nothing so combine that plus running the DC longer will help. I'd use the Hydroponics fans from ebay

    Bob would you care to add a photo or two...there are a stack of different fans in that area and knowing zip about hydroponics
    I would love to grow my own food, but I can not find bacon seeds

  7. #6
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    Hi Bob,

    Thanks for your quick reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    It won't pull anywhere near that 2200 CFM. Attaching it to a short length of 6" ducting will immediately restrict it to ~1250 cfm and the its downhill from there as the ducting gets longer and more contorted.
    Yes, thanks to your other posts I am well aware that you "don't get what you pay for" when it comes to dust extractors.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Passive venting will work OK and even if dust builds up inside , its a "lean too"? so you are not going to be spending much time in there. When it comes time to clean the filters wear a mask and the minutes it takes to do this job represents a low overall exposure.
    Sounds sensible. Any guidelines on how much venting is needed for the nominal 1000 cfm the extractor is (hopefully) putting out? I.e. how big a hole I cut in the back wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    That fan unlikely to move that much air (think about half) and it will be noisy. Look up the Hydroponics fans on ebay. They are very quiet and efficient ie low power. I doubt you will need one for the enclosure but you can always try without and then think about it later.
    I did have a look at the hydroponics fans before posting, but even the biggest (12") didn't move as much air on paper. Like you say, I can always put a fan in later if necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    3m of flex is less than desirable I would try to get that down to under 1m.
    I was hoping for a bit more, but I can live with 1m flex.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    that's one way to do it - but try to use as little flex as possible instead use 50mm PVC specifically for the vac,
    Good point, I'll keep that in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Big gulp or 12" fan by itself won't help that much for your 54m^2 but anything is better than nothing so combine that plus running the DC longer will help. I'd use the Hydroponics fans from ebay
    The hydroponics fan in the gable will provide other benefits (e.g. cooling, fume extraction when painting), so I think I'll install it as a matter of course. I expect the only way I'll truly know how well the system works is if I buy some sort of dust detector. What would be the cheapest detector that would recommend buying?

    One other question if you don't mind: the dust extractor is available in single- and 3-phase. According to Leda they have the same specs and cost the same. I could have my sparky install 3-phase, but it would cost extra. Is there any advantage in going to 3-phase with this machine/my setup in mind?

    Thanks again for your advice, I appreciate you taking the time!

    M.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonto View Post
    Big gulp or 12" fan by itself won't help that much for your 54m^2 but anything is better than nothing so combine that plus running the DC longer will help. I'd use the Hydroponics fans from ebay

    Bob would you care to add a photo or two...there are a stack of different fans in that area and knowing zip about hydroponics
    Hi Tonto,

    I believe this is the type of fan BobL suggests: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Centrifu...r/282513482714

    Cheers,

    M.

  9. #8
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    "One other question if you don't mind: the dust extractor is available in single- and 3-phase. According to Leda they have the same specs and cost the same. I could have my sparky install 3-phase, but it would cost extra. Is there any advantage in going to 3-phase with this machine/my setup in mind?"

    Go with the 3-phase but hook it up to a VFD (variable frequency drive). I turns 220V single phase into 3 phase that you can adjust higher or lower for variable speed. In your case you would run it at 60 hertz/cycle or a bit more to get 20% more airflow from the DC. Basically running it at the same speeds we run ours on. Bob can lead you to the right PowTran one which should cost in the vicinity of $200.

    You can still wire the shop if you have or expect to have bigger 3 phase machines from industrial sources.

    Pete

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprenzler View Post
    Sounds sensible. Any guidelines on how much venting is needed for the nominal 1000 cfm the extractor is (hopefully) putting out? I.e. how big a hole I cut in the back wall?
    The bigger the opening is the less the resistance to flow. I normally recommend 4x the cross sectional area of the duct going into the impeller.


    I did have a look at the hydroponics fans before posting, but even the biggest (12") didn't move as much air on paper. Like you say, I can always put a fan in later if necessary.
    The hydroponics fans are impeller type fans so chances are they will move their claimed air flow whereas the propellor type fans will be lucky to come close to half their claim. Propellor type fans also generate very little fan pressure so will not suck/blow efficiently against any sort of resistance whereas the impeller fans will pull more air through smaller gaps etc. The Bunnings one also consumes about twice the power of the hydroponics type fan.

    If you really wanted to fully vent your shed quietly I'd use two 12" hydroponics and run just one for light dust generation and both for heavier dust generation.

    The hydroponics fan in the gable will provide other benefits (e.g. cooling, fume extraction when painting), so I think I'll install it as a matter of course. I expect the only way I'll truly know how well the system works is if I buy some sort of dust detector. What would be the cheapest detector that would recommend buying?
    Here is a general discussion on dust detectors
    Developments in Dust Sensor tech

    If you want to just to the chase start at post #138 which describes this one is the best value for money.
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Househol...d=292304859123

    Just remember this is a household dust detector so has limitations - they are very easy to kill if you use them in too dusty an environment. DO NOT place them directly in line with a visible sawdust spray. In fact I would as far as possible keep them away from any visible dust.

    One other question if you don't mind: the dust extractor is available in single- and 3-phase. According to Leda they have the same specs and cost the same. I could have my sparky install 3-phase, but it would cost extra. Is there any advantage in going to 3-phase with this machine/my setup in mind?
    The is a very significant gain to be had by using 3Phase (3P) and then adding a VFD because this should enable you to spin the impeller ~20% faster to gain an automatic 20% increase in flow. This can be done two ways.

    1) Replace the single phase (SP) motor on a DC with a 240V 3P motor and a "240V SP to 240V 3P" VFD.
    2) Purchase A DC with a 3P 415V motor and then add a "415v 3P to 415V 3P" VFD.

    Both will allow you to vary the speed of the DC.
    I have mine setup so I can easily switch between 40/50/60 Hz the 40Hz is slow but quieter.
    Here's my WIP Upgrading a 3HP Single Phase DC with 4HP 3P motor and VFD

  11. #10
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    Thanks for the suggestions. While I can see the advantages of a 3-phase+VFD, I think the learning-curve is too steep for me at this stage. I'd prefer to get something off-the-shelf that works "out of the box" and start cutting wood rather than play around with wiring. I can always upgrade my DC in the future when I want some extra variety.

    That dust detector looks very affordable. Reading through the thread it appears its main limitation is a lack of data-logging capability. I've tried searching for an upgraded model without success. Is there a "next model up" with datalogging which you would recommend?

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprenzler View Post
    Thanks for the suggestions. While I can see the advantages of a 3-phase+VFD, I think the learning-curve is too steep for me at this stage. I'd prefer to get something off-the-shelf that works "out of the box" and start cutting wood rather than play around with wiring. I can always upgrade my DC in the future when I want some extra variety.

    That dust detector looks very affordable. Reading through the thread it appears its main limitation is a lack of data-logging capability. I've tried searching for an upgraded model without success. Is there a "next model up" with datalogging which you would recommend?
    No there's nothing available at those sorts of prices with data logging capability.
    To get data logging you'd need to look at the Dylos range.
    About $250 US with only two particle size ranges.
    Also the Dylos did not rate all that accurately in these tests Sensing the Air Quality: Research on Air Quality Sensors.

  13. #12
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    I ended buying one of the units you suggested. I also bought at PMS7003 sensor for comparison. I have a few Arduinos sitting around that I should be able to use to decode the readings and maybe even make a data logger. Sites like https://revspace.nl/DustSensor and https://learn.adafruit.com/pm25-air-...ensor/overview (admittedly for the 5003, but I should be able to adapt the code) suggest it's not too complicated. I'll let you know how I go.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprenzler View Post
    Hi Tonto,

    I believe this is the type of fan BobL suggests: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Centrifu...r/282513482714

    Cheers,

    M.
    Just in case anyone has been holding off buying one of these, Ebay currently has 10% off items over $150. That brought the cost of the 12" fan down to just under $200.

  15. #14
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    I might as well make this thread a "log" of what's happening in case it's of use to someone else in the future (doubtful, but who knows?).

    After doing some research I was all set to by the LedaCraft 3HP model. Unfortunately the single-phase is out of stock, and they don't know when the next batch will come in (maybe June).
    The local Carbatec is also out of the comparable model...

    Fortunately I found a used Hafco DC3 on Gumtree for a good price. Since it's a 2HP model, I will have to mod it as per BobL's Generic 2HP thread.
    Sparky is coming on Monday, so at least things are starting to happen!

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