Thread: Dust extraction choices

4 microns is insufficient. It's particles that are smaller than this that are the most dangerous.

Since fine dust hangs around in the air for hours or even days, even if they filter down to 0.1 microns, masks are only of any value if they worn full time from the moment of first dust making activity until you take the clothes off you were wearing when making the dust. Masks also do not protect your skin and the fine dust gets into your clothes and hair so as soon as you take the mask off the warm rising air from around your body forces fine dust up around your face. Outside it will depend on how much breeze is blowing.

When using a DC the critical factor is to get you as physically separated from the air that escapes the DC (which is loaded with fine particles) as possible

I would forget ANY mask and get the DC and make sure it vents outside the shed. This means:
a) Placing the DC outside the shed (it also gets the noise out as well)
or
b) Leaving the DC inside the shed but placing it inside a air tight cabinet or cupboard that vents to the outside.

If noise from an external DC is a problem to your neighbor you can also put the DC inside a sound proof enclosure - several members (including me) have done this and with a bit of searching you should be able to get some good ideas for how to so this. Unless you produce huge volumes of dust the fine dust that escapes a DC is quickly diluted by passing breezes and no one will see it because it is mostly invisible.

Working outside is not as good as it sounds. I lost my sense of smell for 6 weeks working with MDF outside. A mask might have saved me but now its 1200 cfm at >4000 fpm that seems to do the trick

Thank you Bob, I was hoping you might offer some advice.
I respect your opinion.

Originally Posted by jim47

I am a selt funded retiree with limited means.

I was aware that dust was a health hazard, but I didn't know that fine invisible dust occurred from woodworking activities.

I am considering buying a Carbatec 2HP economy dust extractor, to be used in conjunction with a home made flower pot cyclone. In addition, I am considering buying an economy powered dusk mask from Carbatec.
It is claimed that the mask is able to remove minute wood dust and composite particles down to 4 microns in size.

I would very much appreciate comments on the following.

1. Working inside a shed (a) 30ftx20ft (b) 24ftx18ft wearing the mask, with the dusty outside via 3m flexible hose or perhaps combination short hose attached to P100?

2. Working outside wearing the dust mask and using the dusty with shorter length of flexible hose?

3. Working outside wearing the mask, and not buying the dusty?

Thanks Jim

Hi Jim
there is another option
you will need a dusty for machines like the thichnesser and table saw, but if you can use hand tools for your joint cutting and planes for surfacing then you shouldn't produce any fine dust from those tasks

I'm not sure if you have considered what happens when you use a powered sander. My prefereence is to connect these directly to a good quality shop vac

Originally Posted by ian

Hi Jim
there is another option
you will need a dusty for machines like the thichnesser and table saw, but if you can use hand tools for your joint cutting and planes for surfacing then you shouldn't produce any fine dust from those tasks

Check out this table. The numerical data is in "% by mass" when the data is converted to numbers of particles the data for small fine particles increases by a factor 10 and the number for the larger decreases by a factor 10. Hand tools do make fine dust and had sanding is also a big fine dust generator.



Data for Aussie hardwoods shows even more fine dust is generated as the wood is harder and generally cuts slower and more smaller sawdust/chip generation also makes more fine dust

I'm not sure if you have considered what happens when you use a powered sander. My prefereence is to connect these directly to a good quality shop vac

If that vac is inside your shed you will simply end up filling the shed with the finest dust.

The table shows that using visible chips is a poor guide for what is going on below 5 microns

Originally Posted by BobL

Check out this table. The numerical data is in "% by mass" when the data is converted to numbers of particles the data for small fine particles increases by a factor 10 and the number for the larger decreases by a factor 10. Hand tools do make fine dust and hand sanding is also a big fine dust generator.

If that vac is inside your shed you will simply end up filling the shed with the finest dust.

Bob
I don't dispute that hand tools generate some fine dust, but unlike power tools they tend not to throw the fine dust all over the shop

we could debate this for the next week, perhaps my perspective is distorted through being fortunate to have a Festool extractor to attach to the power sander

Originally Posted by ian

Bob
I don't dispute that hand tools generate some fine dust, but unlike power tools they tend not to throw the fine dust all over the shop

I agree . . . but a good clean up afterwards with an average vacuum cleaner with distribute it equally as well as any power tool.

we could debate this for the next week, perhaps my perspective is distorted through being fortunate to have a Festool extractor to attach to the power sander

Perhaps.

Dust extraction practice is utilized to eliminate fumes and other wellness hazard materials from the setting of an industry. Use of filters makes the extraction approach much more effective.

Originally Posted by jim47

I am a selt funded retiree with limited means.

I was aware that dust was a health hazard, but I didn't know that fine invisible dust occurred from woodworking activities.

I am considering buying a Carbatec 2HP economy dust extractor, to be used in conjunction with a home made flower pot cyclone. In addition, I am considering buying an economy powered dusk mask from Carbatec.
It is claimed that the mask is able to remove minute wood dust and composite particles down to 4 microns in size.

I would very much appreciate comments on the following.

1. Working inside a shed (a) 30ftx20ft (b) 24ftx18ft wearing the mask, with the dusty outside via 3m flexible hose or perhaps combination short hose attached to P100?

2. Working outside wearing the dust mask and using the dusty with shorter length of flexible hose?

3. Working outside wearing the mask, and not buying the dusty?

Thanks Jim

PM me with your budget and we will see what can be done. There are more ways than one to skin a cat.

Originally Posted by DeclanJustin

Dust extraction practice is utilized to eliminate fumes and other wellness hazard materials from the setting of an industry. Use of filters makes the extraction approach much more effective.

And the point of this post is? Sorry if I got this wrong but it sounds like yet another of your semi-robotic answers ????

a fully robotic troll ?

an attempt at a Turing test ?

Originally Posted by BobL

4 microns is insufficient. It's particles that are smaller than this that are the most dangerous.

Since fine dust hangs around in the air for hours or even days, even if they filter down to 0.1 microns, masks are only of any value if they worn full time from the moment of first dust making activity until you take the clothes off you were wearing when making the dust. Masks also do not protect your skin and the fine dust gets into your clothes and hair so as soon as you take the mask off the warm rising air from around your body forces fine dust up around your face. Outside it will depend on how much breeze is blowing.

When using a DC the critical factor is to get you as physically separated from the air that escapes the DC (which is loaded with fine particles) as possible

I would forget ANY mask and get the DC and make sure it vents outside the shed. This means:
a) Placing the DC outside the shed (it also gets the noise out as well)
or
b) Leaving the DC inside the shed but placing it inside a air tight cabinet or cupboard that vents to the outside.

If noise from an external DC is a problem to your neighbor you can also put the DC inside a sound proof enclosure - several members (including me) have done this and with a bit of searching you should be able to get some good ideas for how to so this. Unless you produce huge volumes of dust the fine dust that escapes a DC is quickly diluted by passing breezes and no one will see it because it is mostly invisible.

Working outside is not as good as it sounds. I lost my sense of smell for 6 weeks working with MDF outside. A mask might have saved me but now its 1200 cfm at >4000 fpm that seems to do the trick

Jim

I have been going through the same exercise as yourself for health reasons. The above advice provided by Bob is sound.
Where the difficulty is, is making sure you can get the correct air quantity and velocity to do the job. A significant problem, is getting the necessary information from equipment retailers regarding the performance of the fan. The published data quotes " maximum " air quantity which only occurs when there is nothing connected. Based on my own experience even this figure appears to be subject to some economy of the truth.

There are several places you can get info & guidance re the design of systems and sizing of extraction units
Dust Collection System Design - Air Handling Systems
Dust Collection Since 1993 | Oneida Air Systems Inc.
Bill's Personal Pages - Home Page

If you have a relatively small workshop with smaller equipment then placing the DC outside and connecting to only one of the machines at a time with flex may be an economical solution. However, the longer the flex the greater the resistance to flow and the smaller the amount of air extracted. A judgement on the fans performance can only be made with the assistance of the fan performance data, and most retailers are unable or unwilling to supply this.

I am currently testing out a Felder AF22 unit which is very well made and appears to do what they claim. Unfortunately it involves more money, but so far I feel much more confident in going down this path, & feel the additional investment will be justified.

Regards

Originally Posted by jim47

I am a selt funded retiree with limited means.

I was aware that dust was a health hazard, but I didn't know that fine invisible dust occurred from woodworking activities.

I am considering buying a Carbatec 2HP economy dust extractor, to be used in conjunction with a home made flower pot cyclone. In addition, I am considering buying an economy powered dusk mask from Carbatec.
It is claimed that the mask is able to remove minute wood dust and composite particles down to 4 microns in size.

I would very much appreciate comments on the following.

1. Working inside a shed (a) 30ftx20ft (b) 24ftx18ft wearing the mask, with the dusty outside via 3m flexible hose or perhaps combination short hose attached to P100?

2. Working outside wearing the dust mask and using the dusty with shorter length of flexible hose?

3. Working outside wearing the mask, and not buying the dusty?

Thanks Jim

Jim, you have worked out that you must do something and that is the first hurdle and one that most woodworkers do not want to even acknowledge. The majority of people on this forum have not even got to the stage you are at so you deserve a pat on the back for even thinking about what can be done even with limited means as most of us have.

The point that most miss is that a cyclone of any description whether efficient in its separation or not requires a lot of fan power due to it being in essence an inefficient airflow device, it depends on that fact to make it work otherwise the dust and debris would go straight through. Obviously a 2hp (whatever that means as it means different things to different people) dust extractor will not drive a cyclone of any description to anywhere near what is needed to do the job. Yes, it will pick up the big bits but no, it won't have the performance to trap the finer dust.

None of the systems on the market will trap all the dust, it is a physical impossibility so we as woodworkers live with that knowledge and accept that as a penalty of our hobby. Minimisation is what we are after and is the best we can achieve. Bill Pentz has a recipe for the hobbyist, 5hp/6" duct and with careful hood design and common sense installation of the ducting it will be as good as you will get. It is not necessary to get technical for the average workshop, if it a lot larger or has unique problems then getting technical is necessary but not for the average person if you follow his advice on the basic equipment.

As I wrote earlier, PM or email me and maybe we can come up with a solution that meets your needs and budget.

Originally Posted by Mini

. . . Bill Pentz has a recipe for the hobbyist, 5hp/6" duct . . . .

Interestingly a search for the term "recipe" on Bill Pentz site does not turn up a single hit.

Bill does have recommended minimum specifications of 1000 cfm at 4000 fpm. This can be achieved with a 3 HP DC provided 6" ducting is used, the runs are not too long or convoluted, and filter bags are kept clean. Bill recommends a 5HP because it can generate sufficient pressure to make it more likely that 1000 cfm at 4000 cfm can be maintained more or less anywhere in a decent size shed using 6" ducting.

Equally important as the 1000/4000 spec is what happens to the finest dust that only special filters can remove from a dust stream. A 5HP/6" system that vents inside a shed is worse that a 2HP that vents outside a shed.

Originally Posted by BobL

Interestingly a search for the term "recipe" on Bill Pentz site does not turn up a single hit.

I would be surprised if it did. Stop press, it actually does, maybe you need a new search engine
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/boxes/index.cfm