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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
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    Darwin
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    217

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    Bell hoods, I was getting them for the lathes and sander and any other tool I feel will help with fine dust collection. Before I order the pipe and fittings I needed a viable plan to start with.

    Branching off at the metal inlet I was looking at cutting the metal inlet back to allow the main PVC line to run closer to the wall, where we can install wall brackets to support the ducting.

    As there are tools (2 bandsaws) to the left of the metal inlet I feel putting a 90 degree T junction as the first junction may not be the best option, although it will only be about 3m long of 150 mm PVC. Your thoughts on this one.

    Support for the ducting near the lathes may need to be a couple of posts in conjunction the stainless steel wire. Going through the ceiling to the main structure will not be an option 1. I feel the suspended ceiling its asbestos so not going to disturb this if at all possible.

    The two corners are these better being two 45 or a single 90 I know which will be easier to install. I also noticed in the link to the men shed you sent the photo I looked at there were a number of 90 degree bends and the end of the 150mm pipes, Is this fine to do? It was a neat set up that's for sure.

    I was also look at taping the joints to help prevent any leaks, once all is set in place.

    Blast gates, I have seen the rockler set up and more than likely this will be what we will do. Is it a viable option to have the blast gates near the tool on the vertical PVC pipe, say about 1.2 - 1.5 off the ground.

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  3. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Darwin
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    Well, we have made a start finally. We have just installed 4 x 200 x 2.4mm C section metal beams. These beams run over the roller doors at each end of the shed.

    The beams will have a couple of functions 1. support the ducting over the roller door, 2. the electrical cables can lay in the beams as well.

    Steel beam installed.jpg

    Now to order the PVC ducting, and get a start on that.

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Darwin
    Posts
    217

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    Well the arrival of our new tools has seen a raft of changes to our shed. Finally the tools are in their respective locations. I'm pleased to say we were donated a pellet jack and that made things MUCH easier. While it may not be the perfect solution is seems to suit the members.

    The ceiling has been checked and is all good to fix our ducting to.

    Now the major task our ducting system. Sorry for the quality and I'm not sure why it showing in portrait and not landscape.

    Hopefully you will get the general idea. The main line is 240 mm PVC each X marked is a Y junction, from here it will reduce to 150 mm. The 150 we will get as close as possible to the tool with the final bit being flex, if we can get by without flex we will. Further reducers will be used closer to the tools to meet the different outlet requirement.

    The lathes will have frog mouth fitting to aid in duct recovery. Blast gates, while the best I dare say will be high, I don't think this will happen and maybe a task at a later stage. All tools will have their own suction line and for the small tools, scroll saw, bench sander etc we will use the portable extraction system at this stage. Or it will be taken outside especially the bench and oscillating sander.

    The length of run is 9 m from the jointer - sander, from the main line to the last bandsaw is about 7.9 m with a 3 meter return to the drill press. I guess instead of a 240 mm return to the drill press we could use 150 mm.

    I'm keen to hear people opinions as we would like to get a start next week or the week after.
    Dusty Plan.jpgThicknesser - Sander.jpgSliding Saw.jpgTools line up.jpg Hard to see the jointer is against the wall just in front of the new switch board. Lathe and bandsaws.jpgThe laguna BX 18 has two 100 mm outlets.

  5. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Darwin
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    217

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    Have read over the past comments by members, and I feel there was enough information to get a start at least.

    This is my plan

    240 mm trunk line about 16 metres - at each junction to a machine - reduce to 200 mm then reduce to 150 mm, run 150 mm to the machines. If at all possible install rockler blasts gates up high in the 150 mm line.

    Run the 150 mm PVC as close as possible to the machines before reducing to the size of the machinery port size.

    If I can attach the PVC direct to the machine without flex I will - failing that flex pipe will be as short as possible.

    Machine outlets
    Jointer - 152 mm
    Sliding T/S - 2 x 100 mm
    Thicknesser - 125 mm
    Sander 1 x 100 mm
    #Drop saw 50 mm
    Jet Bandsaw - 1 x 100 mm
    18 Laguna bandsaw 2 x 100 mm
    All Lathes will have frog mouth fittings attacked to the 150 PVC lines
    Drill press - TBD
    Scroll saw - TBD
    Various other sanders etc will be taken outside and hooked up to the mobile extraction system at this stage.
    Dewalt bench top Table saw - 50 mm

    # - when our new drop saw arrives I will enclose the machine to collect the dust and attach this to our 150 mm line.
    TBD - To be Decided.

    I'm aware some of these outlets need to be bigger, however enlarging them at this stage is not an option until the machines are out of warranty.

    I was going to run a couple of vacuum points however this was not overly popular. The feeling is, with screws and other items dropped on the floor these may get drawn into the system and cause issues.

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Birkdale
    Age
    51
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    279

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    Brian,
    I'm pretty sure that BobL posted a few photos of a mod to the thicknesser to get it up to 150mm. I can't remember the exact details, or where he posted it, but it was really quite simple. I think it involved cutting the 125mm spigot off the extraction point back to where it met the perimeter dimensions of 6 inch PVC, then forming the PVC up and over the tapered section using heat guns. I think the replacement dust chutes are available if there was ever a warranty issue.

  7. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    27,757

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjbfisher View Post
    Brian,
    I'm pretty sure that BobL posted a few photos of a mod to the thicknesser to get it up to 150mm. I can't remember the exact details, or where he posted it, but it was really quite simple.
    Improving machine cabinet dust ports

    I was going to run a couple of vacuum points however this was not overly popular. The feeling is, with screws and other items dropped on the floor these may get drawn into the system and cause issues.
    Large impellers won't have a problem with screws nuts or washers, the DC in my shed has been sucking these up and a lot more for the last 7 years without any probs.

    On a BS the most effective dust extraction port is a BMH that sucks from directly under the table and is not inside any cabinet. Like this.
    IMG_1919.jpg

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Darwin
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    217

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    I will need to check the thicknesser out. I feel this sounds like a job at a later stage. I sure I have seen this mod to the thicknesser somewhere as well.

    A number of issues are coming up, one is time to install our extraction system with 3-4 of the primary working group about to go away for a month. I would rather have a system in place so the tools can be used rather than wait another few weeks.

    I know that's an excuse, I'm just being realistic at the moment. Modifications will happen its going to be about time and who is available to carry out the works.
    Last edited by Brian45; 6th October 2018 at 01:13 PM. Reason: More detail

  9. #38
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    Apr 2015
    Location
    Darwin
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    217

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    BobL,

    That's good to know about the screws, looks like I will revisit the vac points. I will look at both the BS and sew what I can arrange. I like the idea of the two ports for the sander, and the mod on the thicknesser. All seem simple enough, convincing the members to cut a new machine not so easy to convince as yet. that's ok and I can understand their reasons. In time things will be able to be sorted out.

    May have to fire this site up at the shed and show members the various modifications, may get a more positive result.

  10. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    back in Alberta for a while
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    68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian45 View Post
    This is my plan

    240 mm trunk line about 16 metres - at each junction to a machine - reduce to 200 mm then reduce to 150 mm, run 150 mm to the machines. If at all possible install rockler blasts gates up high in the 150 mm line.

    Run the 150 mm PVC as close as possible to the machines before reducing to the size of the machinery port size.

    If I can attach the PVC direct to the machine without flex I will - failing that flex pipe will be as short as possible. -- while flex is not a good choice for straight runs, it can compare favourably with tight 90 degree PVC bends

    Machine outlets
    Dewalt bench top Table saw - 50 mm -- this port is really designed for connection to a shop vac or similar. And even then the port itself is restricted to about 50% of 2" about 50mm from the outlet end. I'm yet to make this mod on my version of the DeWalt bench top saw, but I think the best option is to enclose the sides, base and back of the saw with 6 mm Ply (without being too fussy with getting the corners to meet at an air tight joint and then plug a 6" (152 mm) port into the back of the box in line with the saw's exhaust port. The gaps around the edges of the ply box should give a good front to back air flow for the DC to suck on.

    I was going to run a couple of vacuum points however this was not overly popular. The feeling is, with screws and other items dropped on the floor these may get drawn into the system and cause issues.
    Fully support running a few outlets for floor sweep and/or places to suck up shavings from the floor, especially in the bench area.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  11. #40
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    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
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    If I can attach the PVC direct to the machine without flex I will - failing that flex pipe will be as short as possible. -- while flex is not a good choice for straight runs, it can compare favourably with tight 90 degree PVC bends
    Actual losses depend on the amount of suck but with my DC running flat out.
    A 2R 150 mm bend has about a 1% loss
    A 2R 100 mm bend has about a 5% loss
    1R 150 and 100 mm bends have about 7.5% loss
    2R 100 mm flex bend loses between 14 and 35% depending on the stiffness of the flex

    I haven't tested 150 mm flex bends but just using straight 150 flex (not in a bend) over the same length as a 2R bend loses between 2.5 and 5% depending on the stiffness of the flex, Adding a bend is likely to increase that significantly.


    Machine outletsDewalt bench top Table saw - 50 mm -- this port is really designed for connection to a shop vac or similar. And even then the port itself is restricted to about 50% of 2" about 50mm from the outlet end. I'm yet to make this mod on my version of the DeWalt bench top saw, but I think the best option is to enclose the sides, base and back of the saw with 6 mm Ply (without being too fussy with getting the corners to meet at an air tight joint and then plug a 6" (152 mm) port into the back of the box in line with the saw's exhaust port. The gaps around the edges of the ply box should give a good front to back air flow for the DC to suck on.
    6" extraction from a TS blade guard is unnecessary provided an optimise extraction location is utilised. 4"extraction is sufficient and has teh added advantage of being easier to manage especially as the guard usually needs to be moveable. Relying on cracks and gaps to allow sufficient air into a blade guard to extract the dust generates too much turbulence which ends up obstructing air/dust extraction.

    The back of the blade is the least efficient place to extract air/dust from as the blade natural pulls air/dust away from that area and throws it forward. It is more efficient to leave the back completely open to allow air from outside the hood to enter and follow its natural path forward forward and be extracted from somewhere near the front/top of the blade. I have similar designs in other members posts and done extensive testing on this which lead me to this design Ducting update..

  12. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    South Africa
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    950

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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    Fully support running a few outlets for floor sweep and/or places to suck up shavings from the floor, especially in the bench area.
    Me too. I love my floor sweep - no excuse to leave the workshop covered in shavings when you can have the fun of watching them vanish up a pipe instead

  13. #42
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    Feb 2003
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    back in Alberta for a while
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    6" extraction from a TS blade guard is unnecessary provided an optimise extraction location is utilised. 4"extraction is sufficient and has teh added advantage of being easier to manage especially as the guard usually needs to be moveable. Relying on cracks and gaps to allow sufficient air into a blade guard to extract the dust generates too much turbulence which ends up obstructing air/dust extraction.

    The back of the blade is the least efficient place to extract air/dust from as the blade natural pulls air/dust away from that area and throws it forward. It is more efficient to leave the back completely open to allow air from outside the hood to enter and follow its natural path forward forward and be extracted from somewhere near the front/top of the blade. I have similar designs in other members posts and done extensive testing on this which lead me to this design Ducting update..
    Bob, I'm not sure if you know, but DeWalt bench top saws have two blade guards -- one above the table and one below -- I was referring to the guard below the table. This is the one that has a 2" port which is heavily constricted just inside the outlet
    DSC06038 (1).JPG

    This second picture is the outside of the below table guard after only a few minutes of cutting.
    DSC06031 (1).jpg
    What I surmise happens is as the blade exists the bottom of the cut, the sudden depressurization of the gullets results in dust spraying everywhere.
    Because the undersides of these saws are not enclosed, these sorts of saws are great dust generators and I try to only use mine outside.
    My thinking is if the open sides and bottom of the saw are enclosed, then the gaps i spoke of will allow a 6" DC port to collect most, if not all the dust, flying about under the table.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  14. #43
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    RE: Dewalt
    Thanks Ian - that makes sense. It may be even better to remove the under table blade guard altogether and enclose the whole base in some sort of a box with gaps to retain controls etc and extract from the box?

  15. #44
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    not sure if that is possible / desirable.
    the rise and fall and tilt mechanisms appear to be attached to the guard.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  16. #45
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    Apr 2015
    Location
    Darwin
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    Our little Dewalt TS, I had plans on mounting this on a mobile table, one of the many projects in the pipeline. Currently I don't feel we have the room available to have this TS in a fixed location hence the mobile part. Going by the discussion above it would be reasonably easy to house the TS in a box type configuration. Venting from the front and various small openings around the box with the extraction port at the rear with a 150 mm outlet. Maybe using a BMH.

    Anyway lots to do before that.

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