Thread: Hafco DCC-310 - Dust Collector & Cyclone Separator modification upgrade?

Originally Posted by Wanderanwills

Hi BobL,
Are you able to put forward your ultimate system, or your system, so that we can share?

Too many variables. 1200 cfm is enough for most DIY machinery but won’t really cut it on a 1200mm wide drum sander. OTOH a 130 cfm externally vented shop vac might be enough for small 50mm wide belt sander.

If I’m given a specific situation ie
Shed size
list and layout of machines
usage patter
etc
i can make some general recommendations.

Bob I think he wants to know what you would get for yourself if you had a new shop with cat swinging room around every machine you wanted to put in it.

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

Bob I think he wants to know what you would get for yourself if you had a new shop with cat swinging room around every machine you wanted to put in it.

Hummmmm . . . If I was today to build my ultimate shop it would have very few WW Machines in it and the few WW machines I would install would be used mainly for MW. But that is another story.

Assuming the following:
- Dry hot summer cool not freezing winter
- unlimited $$
- 60 m^2 shop , min height 3 m so 180 m^3
- working in the shop say 20 hrs a week.
- single user
- 12” Panel saw, 18” Bsaw, lathe, 20” thicknesser, 12” planer, SCMS, large belt sander, drill press etc.

The first thing I would install is a LARGE Afan unit from an evap AC on a VFD so I could vary the speed. Something that would generate up to 20 room air changes per hour.
Install a DC outside the shop and ducting that will generate a true 1000 cfm at the bigger machines.
Do not rely on manufacturers claims for DC CFMs - their CFMs are incorrectly measure and are for no ducting, junctions and machinery connection - divide manufacturers calling by half and you might be closer to the true CFM at a machine provided 6" ducting is used and machine ports are opened up accordingly.
Ducted (min 50 mm diam) shop vac system with shop vac located or enclosed and vented outside shop.
Machinery all re-ported to fully utilize larger ducting.

That’s about it

That's a touch more modest than I thought. I figured you for a 4 part shop. Woodworking area with a CV-Max outside on VFD, plus ventilation fans on VFD. Metal working area with the new EF-5 (metal version of the CV-Max) outside on VFD, plus ventilation fans on VFD. Electronics and mad scientist's lab with ventilation fans on VFD. Bathroom with biggest ventilation fan no VFD, runs flat out!

Pete

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

That's a touch more modest than I thought.

Well, I usually try to be sensible about things.

I figured you for a 4 part shop. Woodworking area with a CV-Max outside on VFD, plus ventilation fans on VFD. Metal working area with the new EF-5 (metal version of the CV-Max) outside on VFD, plus ventilation fans on VFD. Electronics and mad scientist's lab with ventilation fans on VFD. Bathroom with biggest ventilation fan no VFD, runs flat out!

SWMBO would concur with the last one. She would like one in the bedroom as well.

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

. . . . . . mad scientist's lab with ventilation fans on VFD . . . . .

Some people say my whole shop is a bit like a mad scientists lab.

At night with the lights off there's a noticeable glow from a number of small LED/LCD screens monitoring various things. V/I panel meters, dust, CO, compressed air humidity, DC air pressure etc.

Just for fun I added this sign which I found on an old medical X-ray machine that was being disposed of where I used to work.

Xray1.jpg
Xray2.jpg

Hi Bob,

That is great, thank you for replying. It always gives us an idea of what to aim for, and we know it is not always obtainable.
I do like your X-ray light, i bet that has had a few looks and a few questions....when on.

Regards
Stephen

One important question I have been meaning to ask, is how much drop in CFU or percentage does the air flow drop with a standard cyclone (ie the cyclone supplied with a 2HP DC), how much does it choke down, because I am thinking of leaving it out of the system if it is that bad. My Hafco system is being sent from the east coast for some reason so it still could be weeks away from arriving, As I live in Broome, everything takes a long while to arrive!!

Regards
Stephen

Originally Posted by Wanderanwills

One important question I have been meaning to ask, is how much drop in CFU or percentage does the air flow drop with a standard cyclone (ie the cyclone supplied with a 2HP DC), how much does it choke down, because I am thinking of leaving it out of the system if it is that bad. My Hafco system is being sent from the east coast for some reason so it still could be weeks away from arriving, As I live in Broome, everything takes a long while to arrive!!

Regards
Stephen

I guess you mean CFM (although U is nowhere near M on my key board, but yes, I'm a two finger typist ). Nobody can tell you that without conducting a test on the system, it's a case by case scenario. There will be losses and that cyclone is certainly not the bees knees of the breed.

Haa, got a word in before you could answer Bob.

Originally Posted by Wanderanwills

One important question I have been meaning to ask, is how much drop in CFU or percentage does the air flow drop with a standard cyclone (ie the cyclone supplied with a 2HP DC), how much does it choke down, because I am thinking of leaving it out of the system if it is that bad. My Hafco system is being sent from the east coast for some reason so it still could be weeks away from arriving, As I live in Broome, everything takes a long while to arrive!!

According to Bill Pentz, the minimum static pressure that the latest design and correctly matched to a motor/impeller cyclone drops and still works properly is around 2" of Water Column ("WC) pressure and this is what the Clearvue systems do about 2.25"WC. Given the Clearvue cyclone generates 12->14"WC they still have plenty of suck left over to play with

BP also says unmatched older cyclone design can drop as much as 4.5"WC. A standard filter bag is 2.5"WC and <5 micron bag is 1"WC

Give a standard 2HP/12" impeller DC only has ~8"WC total to start with that doesn't leave a lot left over to get through ducting, junctions and constricted machinery ports to suck air and dust.

Of course if you are prepared to accept lower starting flow rates on your system because you don't want to empty dust bags and clean filters that is your choice.
Left long enough over time the filters will eventually clog and restrict the flow - the question is how much pressure loss do clogged filters generate.
It depends what sort of dust out profile is being generated - finer dust will clog the filters faster than coarse dust.
This is why I have set up a dedicated filter pressure measuring device so that I can measure what is going on.

From what I have observed most folks let their DCs fill up far too much anyway before emptying bags and shaking filters and depending on what is being done they should be emptied much earlier than people realize.
If its coarse chips or curlies the collection bag should not be left to get more than half full and if its sanding dust even sooner.

Ok, I will be so Bold and ask..

I am currently building a new shed and would like some help with the dust collection. Yes I have purchased the Hafco 2HP dust collector with a cyclone and pleated canister before referring to this forum, my bad.... It is still in transport but on its way.

Here is a diagram of what I am aiming for
IMG_20190305_0001a.jpg

• Port sizes are marked next to machines
• Shed is 4.4m x 7.5m
• Concrete slab, steel wall frame, timber truss roof with colorbond walls and roof
• Roller door, sliding door and window marked on plan
• Location Broome, hot and humid in wet season
• Air conditioning being installed to make comfortable
• Walls and roof and ceiling insulated

Bandsaw and combination planer thicknesser to be purchased
Looking at the best scenario, to get the best out of what I have got
Happy to put dc in a built cupboard etc, options to port outside - concerned that with A/C on it will make the shed hot within minutes?
Would like to go to 150mm PVC pipe but worried that the 2HP will not be able to get to the 4000fpm, especially with the small ports.
Happy to enlarge ports but know that it will take time and experimentation

Have realised that dust extraction is more a science than just throwing some air around!

Any help or suggestion will be greatly appreciated.

Regards
Stephen

Do you intend modifying the 2HP as per "modifying the 2HP generic DC" thread?

Unless you do that using 6" ducting is indeed going to be problematic.
Don't sweat the 4000 FPM too much especially on small machines. It is really only needed where there are large amounts of dust being generated like when thicknessing wide boards.
If you are not going to modify it or use 6 ducting then I would be getting a big extractor/exhaust fan - something that targets between 10 and 20 room air changes per hour.

I would put the Jointer thicknesser where the BS is so you can tail in/out through the roller door.
I'd put the bandsaw where the sander is - you want to get the sander away from your desk and closer to the DC.

It looks like you have a welder table in there. That is gonna make a real mess of everything especially being so close to your desk.. The fumes make a shocking mess as do the spatter and slag but worst of all is the grinding dust. - I have a welding booth with up to 1600 CFM of extraction on the booth and it still makes a mess - especially when I forget to turn the exhaust fan on.

RE AC/DC in summer.

I have an AC and use it a lot in summer but don't let it put me off using the DC. I do try to get any long dust making procedures done in the mornings when its cooler. If it's midday or afternoon I still use the DC in short bursts. What happens if you run the AC is the whole shed cools down and sets up a "Coolth" reservoir. When you run the DC it sure pulls a lot of the cool air out but the "coolth" from teh shed helps cool the new air down faster than just what the AC contributes. You just can't start thicknessing a bunch of boards and expect it to stay cool for very long. 5 minutes is my nominal max run time on the DC when its hot and the AC is running. If you break the job down into 5 minutes bursts every 20 minutes or so you should be OK unless it is really hot.

Hi Bob, I have a shed 7.22 L x 3.60 W x 2.7m at wall height with 20 degree pitch up to about 3.3m. I am just a weekend warrior but have quite a few projects to do in a place we have just moved into. I have small table saw, band saw, thicknesser, drill press and 50mm belt sander. I am just setting up this shed so starting from scratch with dust extraction. The shed has double doors, but no window, I was planing on putting in a couple of 30mm exhaust fans at opposite end of doors to get some air flow. I have a couple of shop vacs which seem to do OK with the larger particles, but I know I used to get a fair bit of dust in the old workshop. To complicate things, my lungs are already stuffed (COPD) so I need to look after what i have left. Do you think a 1200 cfm unit with external venting will do the job for me? I tend to always wear a decent dust mask as well, for what ever good they do. Would really appreciate your thoughts and advice. Thanks Rob

Originally Posted by Baddabing

Hi Bob, I have a shed 7.22 L x 3.60 W x 2.7m at wall height with 20 degree pitch up to about 3.3m. I am just a weekend warrior but have quite a few projects to do in a place we have just moved into. I have small table saw, band saw, thicknesser, drill press and 50mm belt sander. I am just setting up this shed so starting from scratch with dust extraction. The shed has double doors, but no window, I was planing on putting in a couple of 30mm exhaust fans at opposite end of doors to get some air flow.

I have a couple of shop vacs which seem to do OK with the larger particles, but I know I used to get a fair bit of dust in the old workshop. To complicate things, my lungs are already stuffed (COPD) so I need to look after what i have left. Do you think a 1200 cfm unit with external venting will do the job for me? I tend to always wear a decent dust mask as well, for what ever good they do. Would really appreciate your thoughts and advice. Thanks Rob

RE; Exhaust fans:
I assume you mean 300 mm and not 30 mm? If not, then 30 mm fans are a waste of time.

If you are referring to a 2HP DC with the manufacturers claims of it being a 1200CFM, then I added the following to post #19 above

Do not rely on manufacturers claims for DC CFMs - their CFMs are incorrectly measured and are for zero ducting, no junctions and any kind of machinery connection - dividing manufacturers claims by half and you might be closer to the true CFM at a machine provided 6" ducting is used and machine ports are opened up accordingly.

Even a modified 2HP is not going to generate 1000CFM at a machine

Even though you are just a week end warrior, if you have pre-existing lung condition I would not muck around and would go straight for at least a 3HP DC with 13" impeller and twin bags or if you can afford it the smaller Clearvue Cyclone. I'd be installing 6" ducting and modifying machine ports to accept the 6" ducting. Anything less than this is only going exacerbate your problems. Wearing a mask only works so far - you still end up with dust all over your skin and hair and end up carrying all this around with you after you take the dust mask off and infect yourself with it until you shower and was the clothes.

Shop vacs are shocking for actually making dust - some even make more fine dust than the collect - If you want to keep them I would locate them outside and install a dedicated 50 mm PVC duct network inside the shed.